Enough Is Enough: Tomlin Must Go
Garrett Garlits
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#31
01-01-2019, 04:27 AM

I know what a metaphor is; I used to teach English for a living. But given your obvious contempt for the team, it was a damn poor choice of one. No feelings, no emotions, no humanity whatsoever, only here to serve at your pleasure; you simply don't talk about human beings that way, metaphorically or otherwise.

If I thought the NFL was anything like wrestling, scripted or not, I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. I've said this before; for various personal reasons, I consider the Steelers in particular part of my extended family. I may never meet any of the current roster, and it's possible that I wouldn't like some of them if I did. But that uniform and tradition mean something special to me, maybe more than for a lot of you. If I thought Tomlin was soiling it, I'd be the first to say so. But I truly believe that those assailing him are the ones doing the damage, and that their motives in almost all cases are less than pure. Racism is part of it, and I'll hammer that point home every chance I get. So is snobbery and envy of the man's obvious intellect. He comes off as way smarter than Cowher, and if he wins even one more Super Bowl he'll have run rings around Cowher as a coach. Maybe if Cowher had actually won a Super Bowl with O'Donnell, Tomczak, or Kordell I'd feel differently, but he didn't, so I don't.

He isn't perfect; of course; he needs to be better at challenges, and he also needs to stop trying to run the defense and the game at the same time, if that's what he's doing. But even with those mistakes, he's good enough for the best owners in sports, the Rooney family. It's a shame that he apparently isn't for some of the so-called "fans" that support the family's "product".
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RaynorShyne
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#32
01-01-2019, 05:34 AM

Ah. Got it. You're obviously a racist.
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mcmillenandwife
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#33
01-01-2019, 05:39 AM

(01-01-2019, 04:27 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: Racism is part of it, and I'll hammer that point home every chance I get. So is snobbery and envy of the man's obvious intellect. 

Your obsession with Tomlin's race is bizarre, Garrett. Your perception that people view Tomlin's intellect as a negative is also strange. Both are non-issues outside of your own head space. 

My problem with Tomlin is simple: He has allowed the team to underachieve for the last 7-8 years despite Hall of Fame talent. He was fantastic for the first few years. 2 Super Bowl appearances in 4 years is outstanding, despite losing one. But starting with the 2011 playoff loss to the Tim Tebow-led Broncos, something has been missing. He's lost his edge with this team. Maybe he'll get it back? But if this season was any indicator, he's currently headed in the exact opposite direction.


(01-01-2019, 04:27 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: He comes off as way smarter than Cowher, and if he wins even one more Super Bowl he'll have run rings around Cowher as a coach. Maybe if Cowher had actually won a Super Bowl with O'Donnell, Tomczak, or Kordell I'd feel differently, but he didn't, so I don't. 

No argument about Tomlin coming off as "smarter" than Cowher. That was never Cowher's strong point. But your argument regarding winning Super Bowls with O'Dollar, T-zak and Kordell is bass-ackwards.

Cowher had Ben for just 3 years. Results: 15-1 and all the way to the AFC Championship as a rookie, he won a Super Bowl Championship the following year, and then Ben unfortunately had the motorcycle accident, emergency appendectomy and multiple concussions Cowher's final year. 

Meanwhile, Tomlin has had Ben for his entire career in Pittsburgh. All twelve years. Tomlin, like Cowher, has one Super Bowl win to show for it. ONLY one. Yet he's had him 4 times longer and Ben has matured and gotten better as a QB during that time. 

The mind boggles at what Cowher might've accomplished with a Hall of Famer under center all those years while he was somehow managing to take the team to Super Bowls and AFC Championships with complete stiffs at QB. 


(01-01-2019, 04:27 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: He isn't perfect; of course; he needs to be better at challenges, and he also needs to stop trying to run the defense and the game at the same time, if that's what he's doing. But even with those mistakes, he's good enough for the best owners in sports, the Rooney family. It's a shame that he apparently isn't for some of the so-called "fans" that support the family's "product".

Here's the thing; It's not that Tomlin is a bad coach. He's not! I still think he is a great coach and I'm confident that when he goes to another team, he will win there, too. But the results show his reign in Pittsburgh has run its course. The team needs fresh leadership to give them their edge back, just as Tomlin needs to go somewhere new that will revitalize his coaching. It's just TIME, man. 

Ultimately, I don't believe the Steelers have the desire to make the change. I don't believe they'll fire/trade/replace Tomlin anytime soon barring a complete disaster, so all I can do is hope he somehow finds a way to reinvent himself, make it fresh again and turn things around. Because right now (and for the last several years), he's been stagnant at best and headed in the wrong direction at worst.
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Chucktownsteeler
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#34
01-01-2019, 07:11 AM

(01-01-2019, 05:39 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 04:27 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: Racism is part of it, and I'll hammer that point home every chance I get. So is snobbery and envy of the man's obvious intellect. 

Your obsession with Tomlin's race is bizarre, Garrett. Your perception that people view Tomlin's intellect as a negative is also strange. Both are non-issues outside of your own head space. 

My problem with Tomlin is simple: He has allowed the team to underachieve for the last 7-8 years despite Hall of Fame talent. He was fantastic for the first few years. 2 Super Bowl appearances in 4 years is outstanding, despite losing one. But starting with the 2011 playoff loss to the Tim Tebow-led Broncos, something has been missing. He's lost his edge with this team. Maybe he'll get it back? But if this season was any indicator, he's currently headed in the exact opposite direction.


(01-01-2019, 04:27 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: He comes off as way smarter than Cowher, and if he wins even one more Super Bowl he'll have run rings around Cowher as a coach. Maybe if Cowher had actually won a Super Bowl with O'Donnell, Tomczak, or Kordell I'd feel differently, but he didn't, so I don't. 

No argument about Tomlin coming off as "smarter" than Cowher. That was never Cowher's strong point. But your argument regarding winning Super Bowls with O'Dollar, T-zak and Kordell is bass-ackwards.

Cowher had Ben for just 3 years. Results: 15-1 and all the way to the AFC Championship as a rookie, he won a Super Bowl Championship the following year, and then Ben unfortunately had the motorcycle accident, emergency appendectomy and multiple concussions Cowher's final year. 

Meanwhile, Tomlin has had Ben for his entire career in Pittsburgh. All twelve years. Tomlin, like Cowher, has one Super Bowl win to show for it. ONLY one. Yet he's had him 4 times longer and Ben has matured and gotten better as a QB during that time. 

The mind boggles at what Cowher might've accomplished with a Hall of Famer under center all those years while he was somehow managing to take the team to Super Bowls and AFC Championships with complete stiffs at QB. 


(01-01-2019, 04:27 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: He isn't perfect; of course; he needs to be better at challenges, and he also needs to stop trying to run the defense and the game at the same time, if that's what he's doing. But even with those mistakes, he's good enough for the best owners in sports, the Rooney family. It's a shame that he apparently isn't for some of the so-called "fans" that support the family's "product".

Here's the thing; It's not that Tomlin is a bad coach. He's not! I still think he is a great coach and I'm confident that when he goes to another team, he will win there, too. But the results show his reign in Pittsburgh has run its course. The team needs fresh leadership to give them their edge back, just as Tomlin needs to go somewhere new that will revitalize his coaching. It's just TIME, man. 

Ultimately, I don't believe the Steelers have the desire to make the change. I don't believe they'll fire/trade/replace Tomlin anytime soon barring a complete disaster, so all I can do is hope he somehow finds a way to reinvent himself, make it fresh again and turn things around. Because right now (and for the last several years), he's been stagnant at best and headed in the wrong direction at worst.

Tim,

Your comments above couldn't be more perfect. Don't forget in Cowher's last year his wife was diagnosed with cancer, started the season 2-6 and finished 8-8, missing the play-offs by a hair. No one wanted to face them in the play-offs, trust me. I think year and Noll's year when he started 0-2 (losing 51-0 to the Browns and 42-10 to the Bengals), then making the play-offs are the 2 finest coaching feets in Steeler history, non SB. No, neither made it to the SB, but the coaching was fantastic by Noll and Cowher. Who knows, maybe Tomlin turns it around next year. 

We all know Tomlin isn't going anywhere anytime soon, but I wish he would make some coaching changes. Danny Smith should go, so should Keith Butler and Joey Porter. Maybe Jerry-O as well. I'd like to see him put someone in the booth to help with challenges. He needs an assistant HC. Maybe these things happen, maybe some, maybe none. 

I agree, the racism card is getting old here. It needs to end. We come here to talk sports, if politics is your bag (nothing wrong with that) there are myriads of political sites of all flavors on the 'net. Heck, you can even post them in the "Coffee Shop" section. 

Peace - out
C-town


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sandfan
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#35
01-01-2019, 07:52 AM

I really don't feel most of the comments related to Tomlin's coaching acumen or results are based in race. Race has been blown out of proportion in areas other than the NFL and, for more sensible types, has run it's course.

He's done well in the regular season vs the NFL norm but I will always submit he's under performed considering the talent he's had on this team. Tim drew a comparison citing Cowher's last 3 years finally having a HOF QB. Two titles, one a super bowl, and a season decimated by injury and illness. I agree it is interesting to guess what Cowher might have done with a player like Ben over his coaching tenure but that's just conjecture. However, reality with Tomlin having Ben for his tenure produces only a similar regular season record, fewer overall titles and one super bowl. Hence, my view that he's under performed.

I also don't think Cowher is less intelligent. That line of reasoning smacks of people thinking Pittsburgh or Southern types are dumb because they use terms unfamiliar to others. I've not met Tomlin but have met Cowher. My view is Cowher is plenty smart enough to handle his past and present jobs. The Peter Principle does not apply in his case.

Bill made a lot of bucks as a head coach and is doing the same thing with his net work gig. Not too shabby for a public school educated fellow from the Crafton area. Clever sayings or cliches are not necessarily a confirmation of above average intelligence. There are folks who lie in both the plain speaking and flowery camps. I happen to reside in the former since I find it easier to measure a person's intent and character without all the obfuscation.

I remember the "chin" and "spit" of Cowher and believe those attributes were positive motivators for his team and gave pause to the refs and competition. That's a heck of a lot different than appearing to be cool behind some "aviators". Like I said I prefer a simple approach. One that fits the hard nosed image of the Steel City and her proud residents. But that's me and I'm just some old retired guy.

Happy New Year to all.
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Garrett Garlits
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#36
01-01-2019, 07:55 AM

You have a point. You know how to stop me? Name one thing Tomlin did right this year. Just one. I'll take anything substantive. This team, as badly as it finished, won six in a row at one point, and Tomlin had to do SOMETHING besides stand there and look vaguely interested. And don't try to turn your answer into another "Tomlin must go, NOW!!!!!!" post either. That only proves my point that your criticisms are ideological, not football- related. (I'm using "you" in general, not just referring to Chuck.)


Are you up to the challenge? I certainly hope so.
(This post was last modified: 01-01-2019, 07:57 AM by Garrett Garlits.)
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RaynorShyne
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#37
01-01-2019, 08:40 AM

...and the team went 2-4 since Thanksgiving.   I trust you have the reading comprehension to realize this thread is, "Enough Is Enough: Tomlin Must Go".

He had is son, Wide receiver Dino Tomlin, sign with Maryland even after the Terrapins fired coach DJ Durkin last week.

There.  One thing.

Now, as far as LEADERSHIP and COACHING THIS TEAM:  no,

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001...game-early

Watch that video.   He's lost the locker room.   Ownership needs to make a damn statement - it starts with firing the coach and fining AB.
(This post was last modified: 01-01-2019, 08:45 AM by RaynorShyne.)
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Chucktownsteeler
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#38
01-01-2019, 09:52 AM

(01-01-2019, 07:55 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: You have a point. You know how to stop me? Name one thing Tomlin did right this year. Just one. I'll take anything substantive. This team, as badly as it finished, won six in a row at one point, and Tomlin had to do SOMETHING besides stand there and look vaguely interested. And don't try to turn your answer into another "Tomlin must go, NOW!!!!!!" post either. That only proves my point that your criticisms are ideological, not football- related. (I'm using "you" in general, not just referring to Chuck.)


Are you up to the challenge? I certainly hope so.

1.) He handled the Bell situation well.

2.) The win over the Panthers was as complete a game by the Steelers as I've seen in 5 years.

3.) The 2017 draft is good bordering on great.

There's 3 without me even giving much thought.

Now shut your pie-hole on racism, I know many of the posters here and they're not racist. We just want the Steelers to win.


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mcmillenandwife
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#39
01-01-2019, 10:25 AM

(01-01-2019, 07:52 AM)sandfan Wrote: I also don't think Cowher is less intelligent. 

Just to clarify my comments, I view both Tomlin and Cowher as highly intelligent. My point was about how they "come off" (to use Garrett's term), not their actual intellect. Tomlin is always very smooth and polished; Cowher was always very real and "regular guy."
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Garrett Garlits
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#40
01-01-2019, 10:34 AM

No sooner said than done, Chuck. Thanks!
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mcmillenandwife
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#41
01-01-2019, 10:53 AM

(01-01-2019, 07:55 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: You have a point. You know how to stop me? Name one thing Tomlin did right this year. Just one. 

The 6-game winning streak was nice. Thumbsup The handling of James Conner in light of the Le'Veon Bell situation was well done. 

Keep in mind, I was still "somewhat" on the Tomlin bandwagon until that horrendous Raiders loss. That was the back breaker for me. It was a MUST WIN situation against a shit team... and once again, the Steelers played DOWN to the level of an inferior opponent. The thought of that ass wipe John Gruden running around the stadium, pumping his fist to the crowd after beating us still makes me throw up in my mouth.

Had we won that game against a team who was 2-10 at the time, we'd be talking about our opponent next week. Instead... there's a draft thread to post in.

The loss to Jacksonville in the playoffs last year shook my previously rock-solid faith in Tomlin. It was like we learned nothing from the previous ass-whipping they gave us. Then, after having that taste in my mouth all off-season, to open the season with a TIE to the lowly Browns? 

This was a bad year for the Steelers. Horrible. The most disappointing since 2013 when I was going through a divorce and barely even noticed what the Steelers were doing. 

Next year has to be different. Tomlin has to turn it around, get hold of the locker room and coach this team to its full potential. No more underachieving. No more inmates running the asylum. No more playing down to the opposition.
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Krunch
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#42
01-02-2019, 05:54 AM

"Insert Race Card Here"

Tomlin has had his team degenerate under his sustained leadership (or lack thereof).  Period.  Their skill sets, their execution, their drive and desire, their commitment to team above self - all have tanked.  He is in charge.  He is accountable.  (I know, I just typed a dirty word)

"Insert Race Card Here"


"Just give me a six-pack and 30 minutes to rest and lets go out and play 'em again!"  
  - Jack Lambert
(This post was last modified: 01-02-2019, 06:00 AM by Krunch.)
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Cali-Steeler
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#43
01-02-2019, 11:01 AM

(01-02-2019, 05:54 AM)Krunch Wrote: "Insert Race Card Here"

Tomlin has had his team degenerate under his sustained leadership (or lack thereof).  Period.  Their skill sets, their execution, their drive and desire, their commitment to team above self - all have tanked.  He is in charge.  He is accountable.  (I know, I just typed a dirty word)

"Insert Race Card Here"



 Race card inserted  Smile



       
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RaynorShyne
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#44
01-02-2019, 11:38 AM

Kevin Colbert and Rooney II need to wake up and realize that they're about to lose respect of the fanbase.

Reclaim your team, gentlemen.
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Krunch
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#45
01-03-2019, 03:29 AM

Munchak being recruited...

If he leaves I think one of the only steadying influences on the coaching staff goes with him.

It would be easy to keep him..... Make him Head Coach!


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Chucktownsteeler
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#46
01-03-2019, 04:53 AM

We know enough that meaningful changes have to be made or nothing will change. At the least I would expect Danny Smith and Keith Butler to be gone. With that being said it wouldn't surprise me if they were patrolling the sidelines next season.


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Garrett Garlits
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#47
01-03-2019, 07:29 AM

This thread has officially become superfluous.

If Tomlin had ANY chance of being fired, he would never have faced the media today. It would have been Colbert or even Art II.

To Krunch's comments, he's wrong on so many levels it's not funny. First of all, the Steelers would have to go through the entire interview process with multiple candidates, some of them minorities, before they could even offer Munchak the job, let alone hire him. Any sense that Munchak had the job before the process started, like Jon Gruden did last year with the Raiders, could lead to severe fines or loss of draft picks.

Munchak is an above-average line coach, but he has a losing record as a head coach, and I don't believe he ever made the playoffs in Tennessee. He's not worth that kind of price, not over a head coach who has won over a hundred regular season games, eight playoff games, and a Super Bowl. He's probably not worth that price to any team at any time. By the time he'd rate a place as Steelers head coach based on overall record, he'll probably be retired. In fact, I would feel safe in saying that Tomlin will coach the Steelers for longer than Munchak will be involved in NFL coaching of any sort, because of their respective ages if for no other reason. (Munchak is 58, Tomlin is, I believe, 46.)

When they do decide to move on from Tomlin, it will be for someone a lot younger than fifty-eight, I can assure you. I'd be willing to bet that whoever it is either isn't coaching yet or is just getting started.
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mcmillenandwife
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#48
01-03-2019, 08:32 AM

(01-03-2019, 07:29 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: This thread has officially become superfluous.

If Tomlin had ANY chance of being fired, he would never have faced the media today. It would have been Colbert or even Art II.

Sorry to disappoint, but it's more relevant now than it was when I originally posted it. The point of the thread wasn't that Tomlin would be fired; it's that he should be fired. 

The AB scenario is just one more exhibit in the avalanche of evidence proving Tomlin's inability to effectively lead this team. That said, I never had any delusions about him actually being fired this year. 


(01-03-2019, 07:29 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: When they do decide to move on from Tomlin, it will be for someone a lot younger than fifty-eight, I can assure you. 

This will probably prove to be true.
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Chucktownsteeler
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#49
01-03-2019, 08:33 AM

Tomlin isn't going anywhere but he did allude to coaching changes today at his presser. It may be hard to believe but I starting to feel sorry for him. At the end of the day though he needs to straighten this mess out as much as he can. I don't think bringing A-B back is in the cards anymore, especially after he called Ryan Clark an Uncle Tom.


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mcmillenandwife
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#50
01-03-2019, 08:36 AM

(01-03-2019, 08:33 AM)Chucktownsteeler Wrote: I don't think bringing A-B back is in the cards anymore, especially after he called Ryan Clark an Uncle Tom.

Garrett, THERE is the racism you've been so fervently looking for.  Thumbdown

What a complete self-absorbed asshole AB has become. Sad.
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Garrett Garlits
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#51
01-03-2019, 08:39 AM

Yeah, they can't bring him back now without looking every bit as undisciplined as their harshest critics say they are. We may not hear about the whys and the wherefores, but if he's not traded before the draft I'll be stunned.
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Chucktownsteeler
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#52
01-03-2019, 08:43 AM

Trade AB for Patrick Peterson, straight up.


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Cali-Steeler
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#53
01-03-2019, 08:54 AM

AB is worth more the Peterson... Id say 49ers for 1st rounder plus Tight end kittle - Smile
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Chucktownsteeler
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#54
01-03-2019, 08:56 AM

Proven CB are hard to find. I'd take Peterson in a heart-beat. Put him across from Haden and now you have something.


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#55
01-03-2019, 09:10 AM

(01-03-2019, 08:56 AM)Chucktownsteeler Wrote: Proven CB are hard to find. I'd take Peterson in a heart-beat. Put him across from Haden and now you have something.

I'd do that deal... in a heartbeat!  Two lock-down corners?  Versus a 30 year old WR... Think about the possibilities, makes me Biggrin !

Just realized it would come with the added benefit of banishing AB to the almost always cellar-dwelling Red Birds.  Bet he'd find trying to catch passes from Josh Rosen, and whoever would replace him when he's inevitably injured.. would be neither as fun nor as productive as his time with Ben.  This alone makes the trade more than worthwhile to me!
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Crash
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#56
01-03-2019, 09:31 AM

Quote:Don't forget in Cowher's last year his wife was diagnosed with cancer


Simply not accurate. She found out she had cancer a little under a year before she died.

It quickly spread, it was a very aggressive form of skin cancer.

They also kept it under wraps, that's why everyone was shocked that she died. Hardly anyone outside the family knew about it.

I'm not even sure Dan Rooney knew early on, and he treated Cowher like a son.
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Chucktownsteeler
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#57
01-04-2019, 02:25 AM

(01-03-2019, 09:31 AM)Crash Wrote:
Quote:Don't forget in Cowher's last year his wife was diagnosed with cancer


Simply not accurate.  She found out she had cancer a little under a year before she died.  

It quickly spread, it was a very aggressive form of skin cancer.  

They also kept it under wraps, that's why everyone was shocked that she died.  Hardly anyone outside the family knew about it.  

I'm not even sure Dan Rooney knew early on, and he treated Cowher like a son.

This could go down as the most ridiculous post of the new year.


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mcmillenandwife
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#58
01-04-2019, 02:44 AM

(01-04-2019, 02:25 AM)Chucktownsteeler Wrote:
(01-03-2019, 09:31 AM)Crash Wrote:
Quote:Don't forget in Cowher's last year his wife was diagnosed with cancer


Simply not accurate.  She found out she had cancer a little under a year before she died.  

It quickly spread, it was a very aggressive form of skin cancer.  

They also kept it under wraps, that's why everyone was shocked that she died.  Hardly anyone outside the family knew about it.  

I'm not even sure Dan Rooney knew early on, and he treated Cowher like a son.

This could go down as the most ridiculous post of the new year.


Pretty sure Crash is right. I don't think Kaye was diagnosed with cancer until several years after Cowher retired, and it took her very quickly.
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Chucktownsteeler
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#59
01-04-2019, 02:46 AM

(01-04-2019, 02:44 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(01-04-2019, 02:25 AM)Chucktownsteeler Wrote:
(01-03-2019, 09:31 AM)Crash Wrote:
Quote:Don't forget in Cowher's last year his wife was diagnosed with cancer


Simply not accurate.  She found out she had cancer a little under a year before she died.  

It quickly spread, it was a very aggressive form of skin cancer.  

They also kept it under wraps, that's why everyone was shocked that she died.  Hardly anyone outside the family knew about it.  

I'm not even sure Dan Rooney knew early on, and he treated Cowher like a son.

This could go down as the most ridiculous post of the new year.


Pretty sure Crash is right. I don't think Kaye was diagnosed with cancer until several years after Cowher retired, and it took her very quickly.

I'm not saying she didn't have it or who outside of her immediate family knew about it. I thought I read somewhere that was part of the reason Bill retired, so he could spend as much time with her as possible. If I get time I'll look it up.


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Crash
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#60
01-04-2019, 04:03 AM

No, it wasn't. Had nothing to do with it.
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