The Mike Tomlin Paradox
SteelThePain82
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#1
05-18-2017, 12:26 PM

Allow me to assume the role of Devil's advocate for both sides of this debate. 
[Image: giphy.gif]

I've heard and contributed to arguments supporting both sides of Tomlin's level of coaching and there is merit to each sides' standing.

Permit me to procure the paradigm that perturbs the people who are perpetually pining for Pittsburgh to employ proper preparation to prevent the Patriots from exploiting the players' putrid performance against them in the playoffs.
[Image: roger-rabbit.jpg]

Farbeit for me to stray from the pragmatic popular opinion of the poster populous.   Pi_bigsmile

But I digress...

Tomlin's win record will keep him out of the hot seat for the foreseeable future regardless of what negativity gets thrown his way.
But the fact that he hasn't had a losing season doesn't grant him indefinite amnesty from criticism.

If it did, this would be a boring echo chamber of a message board indeed. 
[Image: hqdefault.jpg]

The anti-Tomlin squad believes that Tomlin has been bailed out of his losing seasons by a franchise quarterback whose talents and remaining career is being squandered.
The pro-Tomlin camp would cite other such teams with franchise caliber QBs (Saints come to mind) that have also found themselves falling short in recent years.

The pro-Tomlin camp will cite the Head Coach's youth and encourage listeners that he is still learning and improving despite his success.
The anti-Tomlin squad will retort that he repeats mistakes (be it failed gameplans, lack of game time adjustments, consistently losing to scrub teams with sub .500 records that, in turn, drops them out of home field advantage or the playoffs altogether, etc.)

The pro-Tomlin camp will argue that Tomlin is a players' coach who has had great success at drafting and developing talent (AB, Bell, Heyward, etc.)
The anti-Tomlin squad will counter that many of Tomlin's drafts have few players remaining on the current roster and add that he lacks the presence of a respected disciplinarian leader (citing dumb penalties, suspensions, and foolishness on social media.)

Like it or not, the Patriots have set the bar by which all other NFL teams are now measured during this era Sick  (much like the Cowboys of the 90's, the 49ers of the 80's, and our Steelers did in the 70's).
Tomlin will continue to be compared to Belichick as will probably every other head coach for the foreseeable future. Pi_blackeye

So, where do I stand?? 

I'm frustrated by the same things that the anti-Tomlin squad are frustrated by but, like many of them, I have no realistic expectation of Mike Tomlin losing his job.
Though I've heard some compelling arguments in favor of Mike Tomlin (aside from on here, "spokan steeler" delivered a fair case in our facebook group "The Black and Gold Zone") and I hold out a shimmer of hope that he can learn from his mistakes, grow, and win another super bowl if not more.

I still have my membership card for the "Fire Mike Tomlin" facebook group for now, but there's only so much self-deprecation that I can take when it comes to the general tone of that place.

I see the benefits of venting frustrations (especially when you can make it funny like I've seen many do), but still prefer to keep a strong level of optimism for the Steelers chances of success.

But one thing I can tell you with the utmost certainty is that, there's not a single soul in the anti-Tomlin squad that wouldn't LOVE to be proven wrong and see Tomlin succeed in bringing home #7.

So permit me to preclude the preposterous prevention of poster participation in the paradox that is Mike Tomlin's Head Coaching prowess.

[Image: what-happend-to-roger-rabbit-laser-time.jpg]

Lake and DB like most posters here are longtime friends.
The debate might get a bit heated, but much of the banter is tongue-in-cheek.

Referee if you must, but might I suggest taking a line from Thin Lizzy "And if the boys wanna fight you better let em"  Smokin

Conflict and debate keep the conversation interesting and when it's all said and done we're ALL still fans of the same team - we'll meet up at the bar and buy our debate opponent a beer to bury the hatchet.  

Cheers!  

[Image: tenor.gif]




This post was brought to you by the letter "P"

[Image: 18485391_10158819518405599_3681992252733...e=5977B17D]
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SteelThePain82
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#2
05-18-2017, 03:13 PM

It seems that I've overlooked the fact that Lakelander has already self banned.   Pi_blackeye
[Image: 628807708-groucho-marx-quotes-014.jpg]
Pi_wink1 Pi_wink1 Pi_wink1  (yes the picture is tongue in cheek you oversensitive bastids!!!)

Pity Thumbdown I really do enjoy the contrast of opinions.
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mcmillenandwife
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#3
05-18-2017, 03:13 PM

Laugh  Well played, STP... well played.  Thumbsup

For all of the Bill Belichick love going on from some of you, I'd just like to remind you who Bill Belichick is without Tom Brady:

[Image: belichick_browns.jpg]


Just so you understand where I'm coming from, it's not that I "love" Mike Tomlin. I like the guy, I'm generally pleased with the job he's done as our head coach and I would rank his tenure in Pittsburgh thus far as remarkably successful. But he also pisses me off at times and I frequently second-guess moves he makes. That said, I'm someone who gives the players on the field more credit (and consequently, more blame) for wins and losses than the head coach. I'm also more inclined to look directly at the coordinators calling the plays that the head coach in those moments. Therefore, Tomlin (or any head coach) is a little less likely to draw my ire when things go wrong. 

Right now, Bill Belichick is reaping the benefits of coaching a team fielding the best quarterback of all time. I can't stand Tom Brady. But I grudgingly acknowledge his accomplishments with amazement. And I'm here to tell you right now, Bill Belichick would not be heralded as the greatest coach of all time had he not lucked into Mo Lewis knocking Drew Bledsoe headfirst onto the ash heap of history, forcing Belichick to put the most unlikely Hall of Famer in history on the field. 

I'm not saying Belichick isn't a great coach. He is. He's a cheating dirt bag, but he's also a great coach. That said, he's also the beneficiary of dumb luck. Please don't try to tell me that he or anybody else in the Patriots organization (other than Tom Brady himself) knew what they actually had in Tom Brady. He got lucky. And that's okay; luck (good and bad) is a huge part of the game.

Which brings me back to my "players on the field" stance. Chuck Noll didn't suddenly forget how to coach in 1980. He was still a great coach and remained so throughout his career. But he was never perfect. And he was as far from perfect from '70 - '79 as he was from '80-'89. The difference was the players on the field and their execution (or lack thereof). 

It will be interesting to see what happens to Belichick when Brady retires. My expectation is that trips to the Super Bowl end and Belicheat rides off into the sunset shortly thereafter to pursue his lifelong dream of being the voice of Eeyore in the "Winnie the Pooh" TV series.  Smokin

[Image: eeyore.jpg]
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mcmillenandwife
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#4
05-18-2017, 03:24 PM

(05-18-2017, 03:13 PM)SteelThePain82 Wrote: It seems that I've overlooked the fact that Lakelander has already self banned.   Pi_blackeye

Laugh  

Not entirely sure it's a self-ban. I'll reserve judgment for now.



(05-18-2017, 03:13 PM)SteelThePain82 Wrote: Pity Thumbdown I really do enjoy the contrast of opinions.


As do I. I'm much more likely to engage in a dialogue when I disagree with a position than when I'm in agreement because I enjoy the debate. The thing is, it's possible to debate and discuss differing opinions in ways that don't offend or alienate or insult. 

I also think it's a good thing if every single post someone makes doesn't come back to the same viewpoint, ad nauseum. "Wow, this is really some nice weather we're having right now. I really love the sunshine. But later in the week, it's supposed to rain because TOMLIN SUCKS! TOMLIN SUCKS! TOMLIN SUCKS!" 

It's okay to talk about the weather sometimes and not bring one's distaste for Tomlin into it, know what I mean?  Pi_wink1
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SteelThePain82
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#5
05-18-2017, 03:46 PM

The ad nauseum/self deprecation is a big part of what turns me away from the Fire Mike Tomlin group on facebook TBH.
I get the frustration and the need to vent, but when you let get you to the point that you can't even take joy in the good things going on with your team...

I can't speak for him, but based on what I've seen, I think Lake struggles with that too.
He's frustrated, as I am, with the shortcomings of a team that feels like mismanaged greatness.  
But in the same breath, he doesn't want to wallow in negativity and miss out on enjoying all of the glorious potential that's right in front of us.

As I said before, as long the debate steers clear of personal attacks, I see no issue.

It's not like anyone's setting Mike Tomlin's property on fire or sending him death threats.

[Image: groucho-marx.jpg]
What do you take us for? Liberals?  Pi_bigsmile
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mcmillenandwife
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#6
05-18-2017, 04:13 PM

(05-18-2017, 03:46 PM)SteelThePain82 Wrote: What do you take us for? Liberals?  Pi_bigsmile

Laugh

Ah, but... I've actually known you long enough through this site to remember when you were once a young liberal.  Pi_bigsmile  

Kinda boggles the mind.
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SteelThePain82
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#7
05-18-2017, 04:38 PM

(05-18-2017, 04:13 PM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(05-18-2017, 03:46 PM)SteelThePain82 Wrote: What do you take us for? Liberals?  Pi_bigsmile

Laugh

Ah, but... I've actually known you long enough through this site to remember when you were once a young liberal.  Pi_bigsmile  

Kinda boggles the mind.

The operative word here is: "youngSmiley-embarassed

Truth be told, the political debates that went on here were some of the first to make me question the Liberals hivemind.

Nonetheless, if they hadn't, I can't imagine myself being able to get behind what the Democratic Party has evolved/devolved into these days.
I value the 1st amendment far too much to side with SJWs and 3rd Wave Feminists.
Political Correctness and Censorship have always been a pet peeve of mine.

But then I look in at some of my intelligent, Liberal friends and still have to tilt my head and wonder how they can buy into such a party, or if I would still be one of those sheep, on the inside looking out, had I not taken the red pill...
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dbsfgyd1
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#8
05-18-2017, 11:22 PM

(05-18-2017, 12:26 PM)SteelThePain82 Wrote: Allow me to assume the role of Devil's advocate for both sides of this debate. 
[Image: giphy.gif]

I've heard and contributed to arguments supporting both sides of Tomlin's level of coaching and there is merit to each sides' standing.

Permit me to procure the paradigm that perturbs the people who are perpetually pining for Pittsburgh to employ proper preparation to prevent the Patriots from exploiting the players' putrid performance against them in the playoffs.
[Image: roger-rabbit.jpg]

Farbeit for me to stray from the pragmatic popular opinion of the poster populous.   Pi_bigsmile

But I digress...

Tomlin's win record will keep him out of the hot seat for the foreseeable future regardless of what negativity gets thrown his way.
But the fact that he hasn't had a losing season doesn't grant him indefinite amnesty from criticism.

If it did, this would be a boring echo chamber of a message board indeed. 
[Image: hqdefault.jpg]

The anti-Tomlin squad believes that Tomlin has been bailed out of his losing seasons by a franchise quarterback whose talents and remaining career is being squandered.
The pro-Tomlin camp would cite other such teams with franchise caliber QBs (Saints come to mind) that have also found themselves falling short in recent years.

The pro-Tomlin camp will cite the Head Coach's youth and encourage listeners that he is still learning and improving despite his success.
The anti-Tomlin squad will retort that he repeats mistakes (be it failed gameplans, lack of game time adjustments, consistently losing to scrub teams with sub .500 records that, in turn, drops them out of home field advantage or the playoffs altogether, etc.)

The pro-Tomlin camp will argue that Tomlin is a players' coach who has had great success at drafting and developing talent (AB, Bell, Heyward, etc.)
The anti-Tomlin squad will counter that many of Tomlin's drafts have few players remaining on the current roster and add that he lacks the presence of a respected disciplinarian leader (citing dumb penalties, suspensions, and foolishness on social media.)

Like it or not, the Patriots have set the bar by which all other NFL teams are now measured during this era Sick  (much like the Cowboys of the 90's, the 49ers of the 80's, and our Steelers did in the 70's).
Tomlin will continue to be compared to Belichick as will probably every other head coach for the foreseeable future. Pi_blackeye

So, where do I stand?? 

I'm frustrated by the same things that the anti-Tomlin squad are frustrated by but, like many of them, I have no realistic expectation of Mike Tomlin losing his job.
Though I've heard some compelling arguments in favor of Mike Tomlin (aside from on here, "spokan steeler" delivered a fair case in our facebook group "The Black and Gold Zone") and I hold out a shimmer of hope that he can learn from his mistakes, grow, and win another super bowl if not more.

I still have my membership card for the "Fire Mike Tomlin" facebook group for now, but there's only so much self-deprecation that I can take when it comes to the general tone of that place.

I see the benefits of venting frustrations (especially when you can make it funny like I've seen many do), but still prefer to keep a strong level of optimism for the Steelers chances of success.

But one thing I can tell you with the utmost certainty is that, there's not a single soul in the anti-Tomlin squad that wouldn't LOVE to be proven wrong and see Tomlin succeed in bringing home #7.

So permit me to preclude the preposterous prevention of poster participation in the paradox that is Mike Tomlin's Head Coaching prowess.

[Image: what-happend-to-roger-rabbit-laser-time.jpg]

Lake and DB like most posters here are longtime friends.
The debate might get a bit heated, but much of the banter is tongue-in-cheek.

Referee if you must, but might I suggest taking a line from Thin Lizzy "And if the boys wanna fight you better let em"  Smokin

Conflict and debate keep the conversation interesting and when it's all said and done we're ALL still fans of the same team - we'll meet up at the bar and buy our debate opponent a beer to bury the hatchet.  

Cheers!  

[Image: tenor.gif]




This post was brought to you by the letter "P"

[Image: 18485391_10158819518405599_3681992252733...e=5977B17D]
Awesome. Totally awesome SP!! I think it spells out the two narratives well. Thanks.

One thing is for certain, Lake and I will get together, maybe this summer, have a beer or two and laugh our butts off over this.....

Oh, by the way, our side doesn't have a facebook page, should I start one? ( why did the lyrics of Home Home on the range pop into my head when I wrote that. "Where seldom is heard, a discouraging word"....) Nevermind, it would be dulll as h*ll anyway.....
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SteelThePain82
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#9
05-19-2017, 10:08 AM

Quote:
Quote:One thing is for certain, Lake and I will get together, maybe this summer, have a beer or two and laugh our butts off over this.....

Watching the two of you go at it almost borders on comparison to Tommy Lee Jones in the movie Lincoln  Laugh





[Image: more-popcorn.gif]


Quote:Oh, by the way, our side doesn't have a facebook page, should I start one? ( why did the lyrics of Home Home on the range pop into my head when I wrote that. "Where seldom is heard, a discouraging word"....) Nevermind, it would be dulll as h*ll anyway.....

The vast majority of posters from this site are all in a facebook group called The Black and Gold Zone.
It's like an NC-17 version of this place (except when Hoosier's present - then I'm pretty sure it's illegal in at least 17 states Roll )

Hell, I didn't even know you were on Facebook!
Look me up and shoot me a friend request!
I'm probably the only Devon Trouten in the entire country.
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dbsfgyd1
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#10
05-19-2017, 12:01 PM

(05-19-2017, 10:08 AM)SteelThePain82 Wrote:
Quote:
Quote:One thing is for certain, Lake and I will get together, maybe this summer, have a beer or two and laugh our butts off over this.....

Watching the two of you go at it almost borders on comparison to Tommy Lee Jones in the movie Lincoln  Laugh





[Image: more-popcorn.gif]


Quote:Oh, by the way, our side doesn't have a facebook page, should I start one? ( why did the lyrics of Home Home on the range pop into my head when I wrote that. "Where seldom is heard, a discouraging word"....) Nevermind, it would be dulll as h*ll anyway.....

The vast majority of posters from this site are all in a facebook group called The Black and Gold Zone.
It's like an NC-17 version of this place (except when Hoosier's present - then I'm pretty sure it's illegal in at least 17 states Roll )

Hell, I didn't even know you were on Facebook!
Look me up and shoot me a friend request!
I'm probably the only Devon Trouten in the entire country.
As much as I appreciate the invite, I still reside in the stone tablet era, which does not include things like Facebook. My wife has an account, but I am certain  having The Black and Gold Zone show up on her page would result in the end of  almost 40 years of wedded bliss. Especially if Hoos shows up......LOL!!!

I'm sure you all are having a blast over there and I'm happy you guys are. That said, in general, negativity is not something I deal with well, especially coming from people with no skin in the game. If what is happening there is what showed up here recently, I'm not so sure I'd be a welcome addition. But thanks anyway.
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gtadroptop
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#11
05-19-2017, 01:29 PM

(05-18-2017, 03:13 PM)SteelThePain82 Wrote: It seems that I've overlooked the fact that Lakelander has already self banned.   Pi_blackeye
[Image: 628807708-groucho-marx-quotes-014.jpg]
Pi_wink1 Pi_wink1 Pi_wink1  (yes the picture is tongue in cheek you oversensitive bastids!!!)

Pity Thumbdown I really do enjoy the contrast of opinions.

Lake self banned? Thumbdown







"I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid." - Terry Bradshaw
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SteelThePain82
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#12
05-19-2017, 03:21 PM

Quote:As much as I appreciate the invite, I still reside in the stone tablet era, which does not include things like Facebook. My wife has an account, but I am certain  having The Black and Gold Zone show up on her page would result in the end of  almost 40 years of wedded bliss. Especially if Hoos shows up......LOL!!!

Does your health insurance cover psychiatric care?  Laugh

Quote:I'm sure you all are having a blast over there and I'm happy you guys are. That said, in general, negativity is not something I deal with well, especially coming from people with no skin in the game. If what is happening there is what showed up here recently, I'm not so sure I'd be a welcome addition. But thanks anyway.

They poke fun with the narrative, but it's not nearly on the level of the "Fire Mike Tomlin Group".
They're a fun and lively group with a good sense of humor. Spokan Steeler and McSteelerfan frequent as does Bill from Hanover and others who favor the positive narrative.

I think Lake gets a little caught up in pessimism at times, but he always finds his way back to optimism eventually.

I think Lake felt like he was being ganged up on and took it a bit too personal.

Reading back through a few of the threads, I can see where everyone was coming from.
It's tough to take a step back and consider what everyone else's perception is before reacting.

Haven't seen Lake post or comment for a while back on facebook, so my guess is he's attempting to cool his head elsewhere.  
[Image: anigif_enhanced-buzz-21551-1387394547-15.gif]

At any rate, I hope he makes his way back.
He brings a great a deal of insight to the table.  I always tune in for Lake's Take!  Thumbsup
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2017, 03:32 PM by SteelThePain82.)
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dbsfgyd1
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#13
05-19-2017, 08:54 PM

I think Lake felt like he was being ganged up on and took it a bit too personal.
(05-19-2017, 03:21 PM)SteelThePain82 Wrote:
Quote:As much as I appreciate the invite, I still reside in the stone tablet era, which does not include things like Facebook. My wife has an account, but I am certain  having The Black and Gold Zone show up on her page would result in the end of  almost 40 years of wedded bliss. Especially if Hoos shows up......LOL!!!

Does your health insurance cover psychiatric care?  Laugh

Quote:I'm sure you all are having a blast over there and I'm happy you guys are. That said, in general, negativity is not something I deal with well, especially coming from people with no skin in the game. If what is happening there is what showed up here recently, I'm not so sure I'd be a welcome addition. But thanks anyway.

They poke fun with the narrative, but it's not nearly on the level of the "Fire Mike Tomlin Group".
They're a fun and lively group with a good sense of humor. Spokan Steeler and McSteelerfan frequent as does Bill from Hanover and others who favor the positive narrative.

I think Lake gets a little caught up in pessimism at times, but he always finds his way back to optimism eventually.

I think Lake felt like he was being ganged up on and took it a bit too personal.

Reading back through a few of the threads, I can see where everyone was coming from.
It's tough to take a step back and consider what everyone else's perception is before reacting.

Haven't seen Lake post or comment for a while back on facebook, so my guess is he's attempting to cool his head elsewhere.  
[Image: anigif_enhanced-buzz-21551-1387394547-15.gif]

At any rate, I hope he makes his way back.
He brings a great a deal of insight to the table.  I always tune in for Lake's Take!  Thumbsup

"I think Lake felt like he was being ganged up on and took it a bit too personal."

Outside of a few comments from Tim, I was pretty much the one man gang. I'll agree, it did get too personal which often happens on internet exchanges as emotions can rise with very few ways to release it. The sort of thing that cause kids to commit suicide. The best thing to do when you feel that feeling of desperation to make your point stick, it's best to call it a day. Which was offered on several posts, but obviously declined.

"Does your health insurance cover psychiatric care?  Laugh"

What I would need is bodily injury coverage......

Going forward etiquette wise, on Steelers Depot, there is a guy there that when you post  and he responds with a different narrative, and you respond, he will restate his case, then give you the last word. Over and done. There really is no point in going further at that point. Might be a good thing to adopt here.

I will say this, when the only thing you can find to gripe about is one thing ( Tomlin), things are going pretty good. It could be a lot worse. Like the 1968 Steelers,  my Icon. They were so bad, they made last years Cleveland Browns look like the second coming of the 1967 Green Bay Packers.
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SteelThePain82
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#14
05-20-2017, 02:23 PM

Quote:Outside of a few comments from Tim, I was pretty much the one man gang.

To be fair, as the site owner/operator/administrator, Tim counts as (at least) 3 people.    Laugh
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mcmillenandwife
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#15
05-20-2017, 09:19 PM

(05-20-2017, 02:23 PM)SteelThePain82 Wrote: To be fair, as the site owner/operator/administrator, Tim counts as (at least) 3 people.    Laugh

Laugh  Well, I do have 7 Steelers logos over my avatar and you guys only have 5, so... I'd say that's a pretty audacious display of my power.  Smokin
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Rollers
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#16
05-20-2017, 09:51 PM

I think Lake's view was more balanced than some that hate Tomlin. I am not a full supporter of Tomlin and never will be. Sorry if that offends anyone here but you'll get over it. This team has had the bottom fall out against some of the bottom dwellers in this league. Someone gets hurt on the Patriots? Some guy no one ever heard of steps up and gashes the other team. Who was Chris Hogan? He kinda stepped up no? There are some serious shortcomings with Tomlin and his staff. As long as Belichick is coach in NE we will continue to get beaten. Guess Belicheck is better than any other coach in the league. AB made a great play to score against the Ravens to save that game. The Ravens beat us at their place. They almost beat us here. The very next week cincy hammered them. I don't know what it is but there's an issue here.
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mcmillenandwife
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#17
05-20-2017, 10:54 PM

(05-20-2017, 09:51 PM)Rollers Wrote: I think Lake's view was more balanced than some that hate Tomlin.  I am not a full supporter of Tomlin and never will be.  Sorry if that offends anyone here but you'll get over it.  This team has had the bottom fall out against some of the bottom dwellers in this league.  Someone gets hurt on the Patriots?  Some guy no one ever heard of steps up and gashes the other team.  Who was Chris Hogan?   He kinda stepped up no?  There are some serious shortcomings with Tomlin and his staff.  As long as Belichick is coach in NE we will continue to get beaten.  Guess Belicheck is better than any other coach in the league.  AB made a great play to score against the Ravens to save that game.  The Ravens beat us at their place.  They almost beat us here.  The very next week cincy hammered them.  I don't know what it is but there's an issue here.

That's fine. Lake is entitled to his opinion and so are you. I'm always a little bit puzzled by statements like, "I'm not a supporter and never will be." Never? Really? What if Tomlin leads the Steelers to a 19-0 season? THEN would you support him? Two 19-0 seasons? Then? Never is a long time, Rollers. 

First, we already know he's capable of getting us to the Super Bowl. He's done it twice, won once, and gotten us close repeatedly. So there's not doubt he can do it. There's no doubt we'll be in the picture. 

If the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year, would that move you into the "believer" column? Or would you still fold your arms and say, "Never!"
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dbsfgyd1
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#18
05-20-2017, 11:17 PM

(05-20-2017, 09:51 PM)Rollers Wrote: I think Lake's view was more balanced than some that hate Tomlin.  I am not a full supporter of Tomlin and never will be.  Sorry if that offends anyone here but you'll get over it.  This team has had the bottom fall out against some of the bottom dwellers in this league.  Someone gets hurt on the Patriots?  Some guy no one ever heard of steps up and gashes the other team.  Who was Chris Hogan?   He kinda stepped up no?  There are some serious shortcomings with Tomlin and his staff.  As long as Belichick is coach in NE we will continue to get beaten.  Guess Belicheck is better than any other coach in the league.  AB made a great play to score against the Ravens to save that game.  The Ravens beat us at their place.  They almost beat us here.  The very next week cincy hammered them.  I don't know what it is but there's an issue here.

You, know Rollers, that is spot on. I do need to get over it. I shouldn't expect to convince you to like him anymore that you should trying to get me to like cold leftover brussel sprouts.... It ain't happening!! Thumbsup
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2017, 11:18 PM by dbsfgyd1.)
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Rollers
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#19
05-21-2017, 03:04 AM

(05-20-2017, 10:54 PM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(05-20-2017, 09:51 PM)Rollers Wrote: I think Lake's view was more balanced than some that hate Tomlin.  I am not a full supporter of Tomlin and never will be.  Sorry if that offends anyone here but you'll get over it.  This team has had the bottom fall out against some of the bottom dwellers in this league.  Someone gets hurt on the Patriots?  Some guy no one ever heard of steps up and gashes the other team.  Who was Chris Hogan?   He kinda stepped up no?  There are some serious shortcomings with Tomlin and his staff.  As long as Belichick is coach in NE we will continue to get beaten.  Guess Belicheck is better than any other coach in the league.  AB made a great play to score against the Ravens to save that game.  The Ravens beat us at their place.  They almost beat us here.  The very next week cincy hammered them.  I don't know what it is but there's an issue here.

That's fine. Lake is entitled to his opinion and so are you. I'm always a little bit puzzled by statements like, "I'm not a supporter and never will be." Never? Really? What if Tomlin leads the Steelers to a 19-0 season? THEN would you support him? Two 19-0 seasons? Then? Never is a long time, Rollers. 

First, we already know he's capable of getting us to the Super Bowl. He's done it twice, won once, and gotten us close repeatedly. So there's not doubt he can do it. There's no doubt we'll be in the picture. 

If the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year, would that move you into the "believer" column? Or would you still fold your arms and say, "Never!"

No it would not.  The what ifs and the should haves will eat your brain.  Can't remember who said that right now.  We have had one great coach.  Noll.  4 super bowls.  Different era?  Yep.  But he won in the same era every other coach was working in so he somehow rose above those other coaches in the exact same era.  I said I'm not a "full" supporter.  So there's a nuanced difference between saying that and as you quoted that I will never be a supporter.  I've given a nod to him being able to get us close.  My issue with him is how many games we piss away against bad teams and the the seeming lack of preparation on those games.  We had some cap room this year.  Why not go get a corner?  I don't know.  It's not the "steeler way" but they had no issue going after Green.  I was kind of pumped about that addition so it's not like I wasn't on board with it I'm using it as an example of them going after someone they thought could help us immediately.  How does Belicheck draft at the bottom of the pile every year and yet find talent to replace injured people as if it were no big deal?  I don't know that either.  How many super bowls did the Bills go to again?  They got there.  I don't think Tomlin can manage a game as well as other coaches.  I don't think he can manage his staff as well as others.  Do you really think a Patriot's player would tape his coach with a cell phone in a locker room and stick it on facebook?  I love AB but what he did there SUCKED.  I don't see any Patriot reciever getting 15 yard celebration penalties more than once.  Maybe it's a discipline thing?  I don't know.  So here's the deal.  We go 19 - 0 this year I'm on board.  Greatest season ever.  We now struggle with the Ravens every year even if they are having a bad year.  How does this defense get better in the secondary this year?  We'll see.  I have watched this coach squander the talent he has had.  There is a new team that is the standard in the NFL and that bothers me cause it's NOT the Steelers.  Ok. 19 - 0 I'm a Tomlin boy forever.  FOREVER!  But there has been some things happen to this team that make me doubt that.  We'll see
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Crash
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#20
05-21-2017, 04:22 AM

I agree. I think the talent has been here for YEARS, but the coaching staff isn't using it to the best of their abilities.

Butler is too much like LeBeau. He's a LeBeau clone and I think LeBeau is overrated as a DC.

Don't get me started on Haley, IMO his hiring is the worst in Steelers history since Rod Rust was hired in 1989.
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mcmillenandwife
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#21
05-21-2017, 04:56 AM

(05-21-2017, 03:04 AM)Rollers Wrote: Do you really think a Patriot's player would tape his coach with a cell phone in a locker room and stick it on facebook?  

Probably not. But I'm also confident our Superstar QB wouldn't be illegally deflating footballs before games, so...   Smokin 



(05-21-2017, 03:04 AM)Rollers Wrote: I've given a nod to him being able to get us close.  

He didn't just get us "close." He got us there and we won.  



(05-21-2017, 03:04 AM)Rollers Wrote: We have had one great coach.  Noll.  (SNIP) My issue with Tomlin is how many games we piss away against bad teams and the the seeming lack of preparation on those games.  

Okay. But by that standard, tell me what team(s) should've beaten a Noll-coached team between '74 & '79? Chuck Noll was fielding NINE Hall of Famers at one time. NINE. Pi_shocked It is a FACT that every team that beat us during that stretch was inferior, even in an era of truly great teams like the '70s. How do the '79 Steelers at 5-1 lose to the 0-6 Bengals? 

And how did the 16-0 Patriots lose to the 9-7 Giants?  Pi_bigsmile


(05-21-2017, 03:04 AM)Rollers Wrote: How many super bowls did the Bills go to again?  They got there.  

I don't understand the relevance here. They never won. Tomlin WON.

Here's the thing... I'm not saying Tomlin is the greatest coach to ever walk the earth. I'm not saying there aren't better coaches. But I AM saying I think he's a damn good coach and I like our chances to win right now better with him than without him. 

I do understand (and in a few cases, even agree with) some of your concerns about Tomlin. But in my view, our shortcomings are more positional and personnel based. And again, even though I view the players as most responsible for the outcome of games, I also put significantly more blame on coordinators than I do the head coach based on how the pro game (at least in my mind) is played.
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dbsfgyd1
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#22
05-21-2017, 07:12 AM

(05-21-2017, 04:56 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(05-21-2017, 03:04 AM)Rollers Wrote: Do you really think a Patriot's player would tape his coach with a cell phone in a locker room and stick it on facebook?  

Probably not. But I'm also confident our Superstar QB wouldn't be illegally deflating footballs before games, so...   Smokin 



(05-21-2017, 03:04 AM)Rollers Wrote: I've given a nod to him being able to get us close.  

He didn't just get us "close." He got us there and we won.  



(05-21-2017, 03:04 AM)Rollers Wrote: We have had one great coach.  Noll.  (SNIP) My issue with Tomlin is how many games we piss away against bad teams and the the seeming lack of preparation on those games.  

Okay. But by that standard, tell me what team(s) should've beaten a Noll-coached team between '74 & '79? Chuck Noll was fielding NINE Hall of Famers at one time. NINE. Pi_shocked It is a FACT that every team that beat us during that stretch was inferior, even in an era of truly great teams like the '70s. How do the '79 Steelers at 5-1 lose to the 0-6 Bengals? 

And how did the 16-0 Patriots lose to the 9-7 Giants?  Pi_bigsmile


(05-21-2017, 03:04 AM)Rollers Wrote: How many super bowls did the Bills go to again?  They got there.  

I don't understand the relevance here. They never won. Tomlin WON.

Here's the thing... I'm not saying Tomlin is the greatest coach to ever walk the earth. I'm not saying there aren't better coaches. But I AM saying I think he's a damn good coach and I like our chances to win right now better with him than without him. 

I do understand (and in a few cases, even agree with) some of your concerns about Tomlin. But in my view, our shortcomings are more positional and personnel based. And again, even though I view the players as most responsible for the outcome of games, I also put significantly more blame on coordinators than I do the head coach based on how the pro game (at least in my mind) is played.
"Here's the thing... I'm not saying Tomlin is the greatest coach to ever walk the earth. I'm not saying there aren't better coaches."I do understand (and in a few cases, even agree with) some of your concerns about Tomlin". " But I AM saying I think he's a damn good coach and I like our chances to win right now better with him than without him". (And at the end of the day, that is the point, right?) Thumbsup

Couldn't have said it better. Thanks Tim.

Speaking of wins:

 Tomlin has reached 100 wins faster than all but what, three maybe 4 other coaches in the history of the NFL.  Granted, he had a franchise QB, but so did a lot of sucessful coaches Lombardi ( Starr), Shula ( Unitas-Marino), Stram (Dawson) etc. What is really interesting, is the Steelers had Dawson and and Unitas on the team, and Marino played football at Pitt. Could have had all three of them.

Underwhelming Efforts:

Seems to me during the 1974 season we lost to at the time, the win less Oilers. We got absolutely slobberknockered by the worst team in the NFL that year, but went on to win our first Super Bowl. I'll bet if I went back through the Noll dynasty era, I am certain to find at least one blown opportunity every year. Here are a couple of playoff flame outs that are long forgotten about. How about the AFCCG vs the Raiders 76 season, Semifinals vs Broncos 77 season, AFCCG 1984 vs Dolphins.  Cowher's teams had a boatloads of flame outs meltdowns, and  yips

 SO I'm not so sure underwhelming efforts by the Steelers is a trait unique during Tomlin's tenure.  .  That said, when it happens, I'm just a po'd and disgusted as the rest of you.


I
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Rollers
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#23
05-21-2017, 12:29 PM

(05-21-2017, 04:56 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(05-21-2017, 03:04 AM)Rollers Wrote: Do you really think a Patriot's player would tape his coach with a cell phone in a locker room and stick it on facebook?  

Probably not. But I'm also confident our Superstar QB wouldn't be illegally deflating footballs before games, so...   Smokin 



(05-21-2017, 03:04 AM)Rollers Wrote: I've given a nod to him being able to get us close.  

He didn't just get us "close." He got us there and we won.  



(05-21-2017, 03:04 AM)Rollers Wrote: We have had one great coach.  Noll.  (SNIP) My issue with Tomlin is how many games we piss away against bad teams and the the seeming lack of preparation on those games.  

Okay. But by that standard, tell me what team(s) should've beaten a Noll-coached team between '74 & '79? Chuck Noll was fielding NINE Hall of Famers at one time. NINE. Pi_shocked It is a FACT that every team that beat us during that stretch was inferior, even in an era of truly great teams like the '70s. How do the '79 Steelers at 5-1 lose to the 0-6 Bengals? 

And how did the 16-0 Patriots lose to the 9-7 Giants?  Pi_bigsmile


(05-21-2017, 03:04 AM)Rollers Wrote: How many super bowls did the Bills go to again?  They got there.  

I don't understand the relevance here. They never won. Tomlin WON.

Here's the thing... I'm not saying Tomlin is the greatest coach to ever walk the earth. I'm not saying there aren't better coaches. But I AM saying I think he's a damn good coach and I like our chances to win right now better with him than without him. 

I do understand (and in a few cases, even agree with) some of your concerns about Tomlin. But in my view, our shortcomings are more positional and personnel based. And again, even though I view the players as most responsible for the outcome of games, I also put significantly more blame on coordinators than I do the head coach based on how the pro game (at least in my mind) is played.

Well I don't know how to do all that individual quote stuff.  I know that Tomlin has had issues.  Tebow?  Come on.  This guy had the game of his life against us in the freaking playoffs.  Struggling with the Ravens?  Again a team that has not shown much lately.  Tomlin wins one superbowl  Cool.  Many coaches don't win any.  but that's not the standard.  We have the QB to win.  Maybe it's Ben.  I don't know.  So I'll just say and let it go that I'm no huge supporter of Tomlin.  I'm not screaming for his head either.  I don't think i've ever said he should be fired.  He's supposed to help stock the team with talent no?  Explain this HORRENDOUS secondary.  Like I said.  I don't believe I've ever called for him to be fired.  It seems to me there are players on this team that take advantage of him and AB is the main one that comes to mind.  Being in the service for 24 years discipline means a lot to me.  At times this team lacks it.  The draft this year? I like our two third round picks better than our first.  I think Watt was a mistake.  But again we'll see.  Anyway I'm leaving this thread now. I've beaten it to death and I'm not going to convince anyone and no one is going to change my mind so on to training camp
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Crash
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#24
05-22-2017, 02:47 PM

Again, until a certain OC was fired against Tomlin's wishes and the owner hired his buddy the combo of Tomlin/Ben/previous OC owned the Ravens.
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dbsfgyd1
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05-22-2017, 10:47 PM

(05-22-2017, 02:47 PM)Crash Wrote: Again, until a certain OC was fired against Tomlin's wishes and the owner hired his buddy the combo of Tomlin/Ben/previous OC owned the Ravens.

Just asking, but were you really happy with the 40 some odd sacks a year Ben was taking under BA's reign? The same 40 sacks a season that Tim Crouch in Cleveland and Andrew Luck endured, and now Carson Palmer is experiencing working under BA?

Don't you think it just might be a possibility that the Rooney's may have thought that the best way to take advantage of their $100 MILLION dollar investment was not to have him driven into the ground multiple times a game?

Look, Haley is not my favorite OC either, but if you want to go back and cherry pick a few utter failures, you are certain to find them. That said, you could also go back and cherry pick a few howling successes as well, no? I think the true lies somewhere in between.

And I am equally certain if I went back to the BA days, I could find more than a few failures, like the 40 some passing play game in Cleveland in 30+ mph winds for instance.
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mcmillenandwife
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#26
05-22-2017, 11:40 PM

I was SO glad to see Bruce Arians go. Couldn't STAND his play calling. 

That said, I wasn't thrilled to get Haley. At all. Between the two, I think I'd take Haley. We just need to get the red zone problems fixed.
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#27
05-22-2017, 11:48 PM

(05-22-2017, 11:40 PM)mcmillenandwife Wrote: I was SO glad to see Bruce Arians go. Couldn't STAND his play calling. 

That said, I wasn't thrilled to get Haley. At all. Between the two, I think I'd take Haley. We just need to get the red zone problems fixed.

As I have stated many times, I would not want BA anywhere near my QB under any circumstances. I've never known a coach that could attract as many offensive lineman totally deficient in their pass blocking. It truly boggles the mind. Do they follow him around or something?
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Chucktownsteeler
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#28
05-22-2017, 11:56 PM

(05-22-2017, 11:48 PM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote:
(05-22-2017, 11:40 PM)mcmillenandwife Wrote: I was SO glad to see Bruce Arians go. Couldn't STAND his play calling. 

That said, I wasn't thrilled to get Haley. At all. Between the two, I think I'd take Haley. We just need to get the red zone problems fixed.

As I have stated many times, I would not want BA anywhere near my QB under any circumstances. I've never known a coach that could attract as many offensive lineman totally deficient in their pass blocking. It truly boggles the mind. Do they follow him around or something?

Yes, I miss those perennial 12-4 seasons with the occasional Lombardi. 

ESPN has a great show on BA over the week-end. Also, I saw the "Football Life" Chuck Noll on the NFL channel last Thursday. The emperor was truly a renesicence man, wine conisuer, accomplished chef, symphony conductor, and very late in life became a pilot. Most importantly he was the consummate teacher of football and family man.
(This post was last modified: 05-23-2017, 12:00 AM by Chucktownsteeler.)
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dbsfgyd1
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#29
05-23-2017, 12:34 AM

(05-22-2017, 11:56 PM)Chucktownsteeler Wrote:
(05-22-2017, 11:48 PM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote:
(05-22-2017, 11:40 PM)mcmillenandwife Wrote: I was SO glad to see Bruce Arians go. Couldn't STAND his play calling. 

That said, I wasn't thrilled to get Haley. At all. Between the two, I think I'd take Haley. We just need to get the red zone problems fixed.

As I have stated many times, I would not want BA anywhere near my QB under any circumstances. I've never known a coach that could attract as many offensive lineman totally deficient in their pass blocking. It truly boggles the mind. Do they follow him around or something?

Yes, I miss those perennial 12-4 seasons with the occasional Lombardi. 

ESPN has a great show on BA over the week-end. Also, I saw the "Football Life" Chuck Noll on the NFL channel last Thursday. The emperor was truly a renesicence man, wine conisuer, accomplished chef, symphony conductor, and very late in life became a pilot. Most importantly he was the consummate teacher of football and family man.
Yes, I miss those perennial 12-4 seasons with the occasional Lombardi.

That just so happened to be attached to a world class defense.....
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Chucktownsteeler
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#30
05-23-2017, 12:40 AM

Also, "wack-a-doodle" Haley has the luxury of the finest, it not the best of modern time OL coach at his disposal. I speak of Mike Munchak.

Huge asset for Haley.
(This post was last modified: 05-23-2017, 12:40 AM by Chucktownsteeler.)
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