Another "successful" challenge

[sandfan]

Did not watch the game but read Tomlin is now 0-15.  This time with help.  Some things change.  Some do not.  Coach cliche seems to be in the latter category.

[bbbooger]

Yup... More Tomlin bein' Tomlin... Utterly stupid challenge, nothing there to warrant throwing the flag... Just freakin' stupid... Why the h€££ did we extend this guy...?

[dbsfgyd1]

We all have warts of some sort or another. My advice is not to discount the great things this guy does.

[bbbooger]

We all have warts of some sort or another. My advice is not to discount the great things this guy does.

Um... Those "great" things would be...?

[Noll and Cowher teams no more]

So let's see if I understand exactly what you all got out of our first preseason game.

No one mentions how well all three backup qb's played, which is a positive compared to the past preseasons when none of the backups looked like they belonged in the NFL.

No one mentions that Bush looks like the real deal making double digit tackles and almost having an interception in coverage.

No one mentions how Washington actually looked like he is ready to compete for the #2 WR spot. Plus the young receivers competing played pretty well.

Boswell looked like his old probowl self.

How the rookie linebacker Gilbert and Tuzar played better than Chickillo and the young #92 everyone is crowning the next James Harrison.

Or how Gentry looked like he belongs in the TE rotation and his play should squash any talk of needing to pick up another TE.

Isaiah Buggs was a disruptive beast on the Dline while double teamed.

I could go on and on.......

You all just come up with a meaningless challenge call in freaking preseason?
I'm glad I don't watch Steeler games with you all.

[sandfan]

I did not watch but read the highlights and I agree they were as you stated. While all that was interesting I just felt 0-15 was meaningful. Mostly because the coach needed to fix one of his issues and, at first blush, it did not look like the new hire was the answer.

Humans will always make physical errors as well as do amazing things athletically. They also make mental mistakes but 0-15 indicates something is very wrong or Tomlin is just too stubborn or intellectually challenged to improve.

[Noll and Cowher teams no more]

I did not watch but read the highlights and I agree they were as you stated.  While all that was interesting I just felt 0-15 was meaningful.  Mostly because the coach needed to fix one of his issues and, at first blush, it did not look like the new hire was the answer.

Humans will always make physical errors as well as do amazing things athletically.  They also make mental mistakes but 0-15 indicates something is very wrong or Tomlin is just too stubborn or intellectually challenged to improve.

Well of all the meaningful topics that could be discussed, the only ones are either negative or about ex-Steelers.

Not the Mc and wife of a decade and more ago and that's why the posters have gone. IMO
There are so many Steeler sites that still have a large member and contributor count like we used to have here and there is no reason why this site can't have the same but I feel that all the constant negativity keeps potential members away.

I'm not singling you out sandfan. This is the culture of this whole message board that I wish would change. We are all passionate diehard Steeler fans want the same goal and success for the team. There is so much positives about the Steelers and not all negative. I'm grateful we are not rooting for teams like the Lions, Bills or any other bottom feeders like other fans have to stomach through year in and year out.

Half dozen or so keep coming here so why not turn it around and make it more appealing for others to join in and stay.

[sandfan]

I support the team. Demonstrated that with more than a decade of 4 season tickets. I just think the coach has under performed the talent. His 0-15 on challenges is only one part of what I think reflects that performance.

We had super bowl talent for the last few years. My opinion only. We did not get there and missed the playoffs last year. I'd like to say that makes me happy, not that my happiness matters to Tomlin or the Rooney family, but I can't. Instead it supports what I feel has been a major hiring mistake. His in season record is admirable but his performance in the payoffs is questionable at best.

Maybe next year will be different. I hope so. But hope does not win games or titles. Neither does ignoring the negatives that have burdened this team. Tomlin was part of the clown show of Bell and Brown. If this team can overcome the loss of both maybe I'll say Tomlin has earned his cash. But, until then, he's under performed a HOF QB and a cast of great to competitive talent.

[Chucktownsteeler]

Very hard to garner anything from pre-season games, especially the 1st one. if you must probably the 3rd pre-season game will be the closest dress rehearsal. I just hope for no injuries in the pre-season, 0-4 means the same to me as 4-0.

Most of these players in preseason game 1 will be on with their life's work in a few weeks.

[Chucktownsteeler]

In fact I think the stains went 4-0 a few seasons back in preseason and went 1-15 or 0-16 in the regular season.

[dbsfgyd1]

We all have warts of some sort or another. My advice is not to discount the great things this guy does.

Um... Those "great" things would be...?

If you have to ask, it’s fairly obvious you don’t have grasp on what is involved being a coach of a highly successful, and highly regarded football team. 

Not trying to be snarky, but, what is so great about Andy Reid, Bruce Arians, Jason Garrett, or anybody that has coached the Titans/Oilers, Cardinals, Detroit, Cleveland, Atlanta, Tampa/Indi (with the exception of the Dungy era), or in the last twenty years of Denver, Oakland, San Diego, Buffalo, Miami, Houston?

Would you trade for any of that group for what Tomlin has accomplished here?  Other than Saint Belichek, just who do you think of that shows any inkling or track record they would do a better job?

[bbbooger]

Bill Cowher, for one... Consistently did more with less. I could go on and list a handfull of others, but doubt we'd find agreement. IMHO you are confusing "good" with "great".

[Garrett Garlits]

That challenge was so important to me that even though I watched the game from beginning to end, I couldn't tell you what it was for off the top of my head.

I can already see that this is going to be a hard year on this board, at least until Tim shuts it down. Those of you who don't want Tomlin as coach aren't going to give him credit for a thing he does, which will lead those of us who choose to defend and support him (myself included) to defend every good thing he does, no matter how small, and the debate of who else should be coach will never end, since no one who wants Tomlin out will give us a reasonable alternative ("Who, me? I'm not the GM, and he should be fired too!").

Then we'll get into whether Art II has a brain in his head and how The Chief and The Ambassador would be snorting fire and brimstone if only they knew what their no-good nincompoop of a relative was doing to their franchise. Never mind that The Chief never cared enough to "hold his employees accountable" (in other words, fire them), and that I can't think of how The Ambassador would have done anything differently than Art II, his son and the man he chose to run this franchise, is doing right now. Then we'll hear, "Oh well, who gives a shit anyway? The NFL is a league full of pansies, sissies, and turncoat un-American idiots, and I'm through wasting my time with them, but I still come here to comment just because I can.") It's all so tiresome and predictable, and not even a Super Bowl win, should it come, will stop it. ("Tomlin's still no good! If it wasn't for Ben, he wouldn't have won five games this year!")

There's nothing else I choose to add at the moment. Feel free to tear me apart at your leisure.

[bbbooger]

The Standard is the STANDARD...!

[dbsfgyd1]

Bill Cowher, for one... Consistently did more with less.  I could go on and list a handfull of others, but doubt we'd find agreement.  IMHO you are confusing "good" with "great"

Bill did more with less? Are you serious? Did you even follow the team between 2011 and 2015? How about winning SB43 with that OL, hamstrung by one of those overrated offensive coordinators on the planet?
Ok what was Cowher’s excuse for his 90’s teams up to the rebuilding starting around 1997, for fizzing out in the playoff, not to mention the best defense in the league taking off the first half of Super Bowl XX? How about the One More Yard game ?  Those were loaded Championship caliber teams for crying out loud.
Speaking of Rebuilding, just how good were those teams from 97- until Roethlisberger? How about the early 2000s teams, again with a great defense flaming out against the Patriots?
Further, the AFC Central has been way more competitive during Tomlin’s tenure than what Cowher had to contend with. 
I will say this, Cowher was a dang good coach, but I’m here to tell you there were just as many detractors that wanted today his head on a platter until the day he retired than Tomlin has today. Its part of the job. 
And this sort of BS is exactly what the next poor SOB can expect regardless of what he does.
I’m still of a bent that it’s been so long since we’ve seen what bad coaching really looks like (my avatar is the the team photo of the 1968 steelers one of the worst coaching jobs in the last 60 years) that most don’t understand what it really looks like. 
You can call Tomlin good, great, a lame brain, or whatever. He just happens to be one of the very best in the business, and if you don’t believe me, check around. I’m not the only one of this opinion. 
Now, there is a coach on the team that I have no clue as to why he’s still around, is Keith Butler. From the looks of the first pre season game, the guy still hasn’t figured out that you actually need to cover tight ends running pass routes. This is what? Year 6?

[bbbooger]

Tebow...
BBBortles...
One and done...
The standard is the standard!
And, as to your last paragraph: its Tomlin that's been running the defense since Lebeau "retired", that's been well-documented. Deebo nailed it when he said the more influence Tomlin exercises over the defense, the further the team gets from 7.
Your condescension is amusing: we disagree so "its fairly obvious" I "don't have a grasp..." and didn't "even watch..." might want to have Garrett help throw out the race card to complete the trifecta of insults ?.

[dbsfgyd1]

Tebow...
BBBortles...
One and done...
The standard is the standard!
And, as to your last paragraph: its Tomlin that's been running the defense since Lebeau "retired", that's been well-documented.  Deebo nailed it when he said the more influence Tomlin exercises over the defense, the further the team gets from 7.
Your condescension is amusing: we disagree so "its fairly obvious" I "don't have a grasp..." and didn't "even watch..."  might want to have Garrett help throw out the race card to complete the trifecta of insults ?.

I remember more than a few playoff games Cowher’s teams that  tanked, and they were loaded. As for Tebow, it was a good play against a player that screwed the pooch. The last time I checked coaches don’t play, and those aren’t programmable robots out there. A seasoned pro, (who was it? Taylor?) should have known better at that point in the game than  to play press coverage. Did the same thing in Super Bowl 43 on the Fitzgerald touchdown.

How about the 2004 playoff against the Pats? How about the fog bowl playoff game played in Foxboro where they played like they wanted the game to be over and go home from the moment they crossed the white line? I guarantee I can come up with Cowher team flame outs all day long.

More to the point, all teams at one point or another under produce. It’s a nature of the beast. To assign all failures, or successes for that matter, to the head coach is absurd.

As for the Debo quote, according to AB and Le’Veon, Roethlisberger is the one running the show. 
So who you going to believe?

BTW, I apologize for some of my personally directed comments that “obviously” were in poor form. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

[sandfan]

Regular season Cowher 240 total games 140 wins 90 losses 1 tie .623. Playoffs 21 total games 12 wins 9 losses .571.

Tomlin regular season 192 total games 125 wins 66 losses 1 tie. .654. Playoffs 8 wins 7 losses .533.

Both won 1 super bowl. Tomlin slightly better in the regular season and Cowher a bit better in the playoffs. Sort of a wash unless one favors what a team does in the playoffs. I do and that's one reason I favor Cowher.

Tomlin has had a HOF QB his entire tenure save injury. Cowher had Ben for a short time and fielded the majority of this squads with QBs not in Ben's league. I think that's a major factor when making a comparison. I wonder what Tomlin will do once Ben goes, assuming he's not out the door at the same time?

Both coaches have been successful. One could make a case that Cowher's record would have been better had he had a QB or Ben's talents for his tenure. Time will tell if Tomlin can succeed without Ben.

Neither was perfect. I favor what Cowher accomplished vs Tomlin but I've never been a Tomlin fan and have never been shy to state that position. If Tomlin hangs around he will establish himself as a better coach if he can win after Ben retires. Two major "ifs" in that sentence.

One more if. If someone can make a case that Ben has not been the major factor in both records I'd like to see it. That effort would have to go a lot deeper than just putting the W's and L's on paper. It would take more time than I have to commit. Go for it Tomlin supporters or detractors if you do.

[dbsfgyd1]

Regular season Cowher 240 total games 140 wins 90 losses 1 tie .623.  Playoffs 21 total games 12 wins 9 losses .571.

Tomlin regular season 192 total games 125 wins 66 losses 1 tie. .654.  Playoffs 8 wins 7 losses .533.

Both won 1 super bowl.  Tomlin slightly better in the regular season and Cowher a bit better in the playoffs.  Sort of a wash unless one favors what a team does in the playoffs.  I do and that's one reason I favor Cowher.

Tomlin has had a HOF QB his entire tenure save injury.  Cowher had Ben for a short time and fielded the majority of this squads with QBs not in Ben's league.  I think that's a major factor when making a comparison.  I wonder what Tomlin will do once Ben goes, assuming he's not out the door at the same time?  

Both coaches have been successful.  One could make a case that Cowher's record would have been better had he had a QB or Ben's talents for his tenure.  Time will tell if Tomlin can succeed without Ben.  

Neither was perfect.  I favor what Cowher accomplished vs Tomlin but I've never been a Tomlin fan and have never been shy to state that position.  If Tomlin hangs around he will establish himself as a better coach if he can win after Ben retires.  Two major "ifs" in that sentence.  

One more if.  If someone can make a case that Ben has not been the major factor in both records I'd like to see it.  That effort would have to go a lot deeper than just putting the W's and L's on paper.  It would take more time than I have to commit.  Go for it Tomlin supporters or detractors if you do.

So if Tomlin wins 2 playoff game the year he’s better coach? 

Seriously, they are both solid NFL coaches. True, Tomlin had Ben, but he was left pretty much with a decaying aging team. THE online from when Faneca left until they drafted Pouncey, DeCastro, and Gilbert was below the line, and the sack totals prove it. The D was solid but by the time of their last super bowl, they were on there last legs. The teams from 2011 until 2014 were rebuilding years. 

2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018 going into the season they were Super Bowl contenders 2015, the playoffs come Bell is injured, DeAngelo Williams is hurt and we are forced to play a playoff game with street level running back, Tate. 2016, in the divisional game Bell announces he hurt his groin and can’t play after a few plays. You just lost a significant part of your offense your game plan was built around. 2017 the week before the last game, AB is knocked into next Tuesday by Burfict and you lose the best  receiver I’ve ever seen. Oh not to mention losing your starting MLB to a back injury that left him paralyzed better that half way into the season.

2018, one of the best running back in league doesn’t show up for work, the best wide out I’ve ever seen, who I am still certain that hit he took last year made him looney, decided that it was more important that he was thrown the ball every play than win games, and made everybody’s Life miserable.. not to mention a pro bowl place kicker that has been money in the bank for the prior two years became decidedly  unclutch.....

Of course, this is all Tomlin’s fault.

[sandfan]

Injuries happen. I've been away from Pittsburgh too long to recite them as you did. I imagine they impacted the teams that Cowher ran as well. It's part of the game and avoiding them typically leads to a successful season. I now watch maybe half the games in season, none in pre season and most in post season. My info comes from this board and the Trib which I can access via the PC. I'm no longer a closely tied fan so my views may be a bit more stale or tainted.

Tomlin's failure to manage Bell and Brown is a different color horse. His failure to manage the locker room is along the same vein. Those were not injury related unless we are discussing bruised egos or brains. Both are more significant, in my view, than his challenge stats but just as damaging as his apparent inability to game plan/switch tactics before and during a game. Those are gross failures in my view.

I'm not a Tomlin fan. Never have been. I believe he has under performed the talent available. I think, if he were coaching Cleveland, Baltimore or Cincy his record would not be nearly as stellar. I don't think he would have matched what the Pats have done had he been their coach. I think he's a guy that can do an adequate job but fell into a good situation especially as that pertains to QB and ownership. He would have to be great to match Brady and Belicheat and I don't believe he's there.

It's not all Tomlin's fault that he lost Bell and Brown but he played a role in those scenarios. As I shared injuries happen. Those are not his fault unless one thinks running the wheels off one back might lead to an injury or two.

If Tomlin's team wins 2 playoff games this year that will not necessarily make him a better coach than Cowher or Noll. It will just change the data totals. What might convince me he's in their league is if he can win titles once Ben retires. That's a challenge he has never had to face in his tenure.

[dbsfgyd1]

Oh, no doubt he’s not on Belichek’s level at this point. Who is, and what do you do if you aren’t? Pout?

Think of it this way, who was the best coach in the 50’s? 60’s? 70’s? Let’s see, Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, and Chuck Noll. There were a few in the 70’s we can tick off that were pretty stinking good because we lived through it, but on a par with Chuck? Not on the record.

But was it really Chuck or the talent? I think his wife’s comment on A Football Life where after the 1980 season he told her the team is getting old and we’re in for some difficult years is very telling. His record after the dynasty players retired was pretty mediocre.

IMO, I think championship teams are confluence of both players and coaches. What separates Belichek is he gets the most out of his players of lessor talent. His genius is in limiting responsibility of a position to the talent available.

Like there was only one Paul Brown and Vince Lombardi, Belichek deserves to be in that group. But that poor fodder for saying everybody else sucks.