What does Tomlin do well
sandfan
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#1
10-10-2019, 10:37 PM

I've been scratching my head a bit over this.  Thought I put this out to you guys since more eyes and more time watching him will help me develop an understanding.

My view is he does well at winning regular season games.  That's helped a bit by being in a division with the Browns and Bengals but that's not nearly as advantageous as the deal the Pats have.  It also does not hurt to have a HOF QB for your entire tenure.  We all know that's resulted in never having a losing season.  That's a good thing and an achievement of some merit for the rest of the league.  

I've tried to think about all the qualities a head coach should have or do to be successful.  Does he hire good assistants, is he good at in game tactics and game strategy, can he help the GM draft quality players, does he optimize the talents of those players within his systems, does he control and have the respect of the locker room, does he understand the challenge flag process, (that one is more of a joke guys), can he win in the playoffs and generate titles, etc.?

Obviously, at least for me, my last item is the most important for Steeler fans since it's all about the Lombardi's.  However, the pieces and talents to get to that point are comprised of my prior items plus some more that you guys will hopefully add.  

My view is he does not hire well, his tactics can be questioned, we seem to draft well except for DB, he must do pretty well adapting those assets to his systems since he wins a lot of regular season games, control and respect are hard to define except for the Bell and Brown scenarios, he has not won a challenge in a very long time and his playoff record is less than stellar.  So fire away if you have an interest.
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dbsfgyd1
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#2
10-11-2019, 09:37 AM

If you have a constantly good team competitive year in and year out, hall of fame QB or not, is the first benchmark to go by. Is Ben really that good to cause us to win 8 game or more a year b himself?

The last time I checked, it takes 53 players, not one QB, to field a team. NFL history has shown that having a franchise QB is not a guarantee of championships, nor is it a necessity.

There are 31 teams that are all trying to win a championship. 30 of them not being champions does not mean the coaching stinks.

What I want to know is why is Cowher on a pedestal, when his best team, the 95 squad which fell to the Cowboys, everybody is on O’Donnell’s case for the interceptions, but JuJu loses a critical fumble ( not the first time by the way) and Tomlin can’t coach. I don’t get it.
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Rollers
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#3
10-11-2019, 11:22 AM

(10-11-2019, 09:37 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: If you have a constantly good team competitive year in and year out, hall of fame QB or not, is the first benchmark to go by. Is Ben really that good to cause us to win 8 game or more a year b himself?

The last time I checked, it takes 53 players, not one QB, to field a team. NFL history has shown that having a franchise QB is not a guarantee of championships, nor is it a necessity.  

There are 31 teams that are all trying to win a championship. 30 of them not being champions does not mean the coaching stinks.

What I want to know is why is Cowher on a pedestal, when his best team, the 95 squad which fell to the Cowboys, everybody is on O’Donnell’s case for the interceptions,  but JuJu loses a critical fumble ( not the first time by the way) and Tomlin can’t coach. I don’t get it.

If you believe Tomlin is a good coach then I don't have any clue what to say.  He has a hall of fame QB.  Has had him for his entire career and has won one superbowl with Cowher's players.  Zero since.  Horrible playoff record.  So if not having a losing season is the standard then he's the best of all time I suppose.  He continually allows this team to be unprepared.  He loses to sub 500 teams which we should kill.  I don't recall anyone blaiming the Ham Sammich for the fumble.  He is totally out of the game on the sideline during the game.  Stands all alone and does nothing to help with game planning.  Not a thing.  Just stares out at the field.  He has two of the worst coordinators on any NFL team yet he keeps them year after year.  If you have a hall of fame QB that makes the winning easier.  So if you want to defend the Ham Sammich go ahead.  I hope we can boon doggle the Skins and get a number one pick out of them for him.  I'm tired of his act.  Tired of his cliches.  It's time for him to go while we still have Ben for a couple more years if he can come back.  So there's my opinion
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bbbooger
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#4
10-11-2019, 11:52 AM

"What does the Ham Sammich do well...?"

Underperform his talent...?
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Cali-Steeler
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#5
10-12-2019, 12:11 AM

   




 >>>
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Rollers
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#6
10-12-2019, 12:18 AM

(10-12-2019, 12:11 AM)Cali-Steeler Wrote:  >>>

that's pretty good
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mcmillenandwife
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#7
10-12-2019, 12:57 AM

(10-11-2019, 09:37 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: Is Ben really that good to cause us to win 8 game or more a year by himself?

YES. Ben is that good. 

So let's set the record straight: The person who has never had a losing season is BEN ROETHLISBERGER

Mike Tomlin is only marginally relevant to this picture. Once again... a Ham Sammich could coach the Steelers to an 8-8 season with a healthy Ben Roethlisberger under center in my opinion.

Yes, it takes 53 players. And the coach does matter in some areas. Tomlin was a major catalyst for good in his first 4 seasons. But I believe it's gotten tired. Routine. Same old shit. It happened with Cowher, too, IMO. And then Ben came and it pushed the team over the top. A Hall of Fame QB under center will cover a great many warts.

People see these young QB's putting up respectable numbers while Ben is out, and they've played admirably. But they aren't winning. Ben's ability to WIN is what sets him apart. He makes things happen, he's outstanding in the clutch. He has been his entire career. 

O'Donnell wasn't creative or clutch. Kordell was creative, but he definitely wasn't clutch. Maddox had a very brief flash of creativity and "clutchness"... but he couldn't sustain it. Ben has been creative and clutch his entire career, and IMO, HE is the primary reason the Steelers haven't had a losing season since 2003. 


(10-11-2019, 09:37 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: There are 31 teams that are all trying to win a championship. 30 of them not being champions does not mean the coaching stinks. 


Agreed.  Thumbsup



(10-11-2019, 09:37 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: What I want to know is why is Cowher on a pedestal, when his best team, the 95 squad which fell to the Cowboys, everybody is on O’Donnell’s case for the interceptions,  but JuJu loses a critical fumble ( not the first time by the way) and Tomlin can’t coach. I don’t get it.

Cohwer coached a BRILLIANT game in the Super Bowl loss to Dallas. The Cowboys were a dynasty. They had a better team. But Cowher, despite a completely non-creative QB without a clutch bone in his body, played them to the wire. By the end, the Steelers had out-played the Cowboys. Outplayed them, out-coached them. 

But the real difference in the game was Troy Aikman on one side, Kneel O'Dollar (who played so pporly he made no-talent hack Larry Brown a household name) on the other. 

I don't blame Tomlin for Juju's fumble. That's on Juju, and it was a great play by the defense. I blame Tomlin for allowing a HB option pass from Wildcat formation in the shadow of our own goal post which resulted in an awful INT thrown by Jay-fucking-Sam (???) to put us down 10-0. That was awful, awful, AWFUL situational football.
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dbsfgyd1
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#8
10-12-2019, 11:57 AM

(10-12-2019, 12:57 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(10-11-2019, 09:37 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: Is Ben really that good to cause us to win 8 game or more a year by himself?

YES. Ben is that good. 

So let's set the record straight: The person who has never had a losing season is BEN ROETHLISBERGER

Mike Tomlin is only marginally relevant to this picture. Once again... a Ham Sammich could coach the Steelers to an 8-8 season with a healthy Ben Roethlisberger under center in my opinion.

Yes, it takes 53 players. And the coach does matter in some areas. Tomlin was a major catalyst for good in his first 4 seasons. But I believe it's gotten tired. Routine. Same old shit. It happened with Cowher, too, IMO. And then Ben came and it pushed the team over the top. A Hall of Fame QB under center will cover a great many warts.

People see these young QB's putting up respectable numbers while Ben is out, and they've played admirably. But they aren't winning. Ben's ability to WIN is what sets him apart. He makes things happen, he's outstanding in the clutch. He has been his entire career. 

O'Donnell wasn't creative or clutch. Kordell was creative, but he definitely wasn't clutch. Maddox had a very brief flash of creativity and "clutchness"... but he couldn't sustain it. Ben has been creative and clutch his entire career, and IMO, HE is the primary reason the Steelers haven't had a losing season since 2003. 


(10-11-2019, 09:37 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: There are 31 teams that are all trying to win a championship. 30 of them not being champions does not mean the coaching stinks. 


Agreed.  Thumbsup



(10-11-2019, 09:37 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: What I want to know is why is Cowher on a pedestal, when his best team, the 95 squad which fell to the Cowboys, everybody is on O’Donnell’s case for the interceptions,  but JuJu loses a critical fumble ( not the first time by the way) and Tomlin can’t coach. I don’t get it.

Cohwer coached a BRILLIANT game in the Super Bowl loss to Dallas. The Cowboys were a dynasty. They had a better team. But Cowher, despite a completely non-creative QB without a clutch bone in his body, played them to the wire. By the end, the Steelers had out-played the Cowboys. Outplayed them, out-coached them. 

But the real difference in the game was Troy Aikman on one side, Kneel O'Dollar (who played so pporly he made no-talent hack Larry Brown a household name) on the other. 

I don't blame Tomlin for Juju's fumble. That's on Juju, and it was a great play by the defense. I blame Tomlin for allowing a HB option pass from Wildcat formation in the shadow of our own goal post which resulted in an awful INT thrown by Jay-fucking-Sam (???) to put us down 10-0. That was awful, awful, AWFUL situational football.

Tim, did you even bother to watch the first half of XXX? That was brilliance? I’m not exactly sure the boys were that much better, and frankly, in the first half, the Steeler stunk it up.  

And while we are discussing the mid 90’s teams, how  do you explain the meltdowns vs SanDiego, the 3 more yards game, 4 quarter melt down vs the Chiefs, Korkies endzone pick vs the Broncos, and frankly, Cowher was no Patriot slayer either. Those were loaded teams, Super Bowl contenders. Everyone of those teams had somebody that choked at the wrong time.
Heck, Cowher would have lost his only super bowl if Holmgren had managed the clock well, and we had a world class defense, and a QB that played like he had a bad hangover.

BTW, beside St. Belli, name a coach that is really tearing it up, especially after a few once in a lifetime player contracts are signed leaving their teams in cap hell? Like the Rams for instance? The Seahawks sure had a fire sale that brought them to the middling  tier. Saints, and Chargers have had more than a few up and down years with Hall of Fame franchise QBs.

Outside of Belichek, Harbaugh, and maybe Carrol, and none of them are going anywhere, for the life of me, I can’t think of another coach that is going to produce better results. Reid? Really?
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sandfan
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#9
10-12-2019, 09:10 PM

One never knows if another coach can produce better results until another coach is given that chance. We can't go back to the future with the Tomlin decision. All we can do is speculate.

I believe Ben's talents were the driving force for the teams record. More than Tomlin, more than the staff and more than the rest of the squad. He's not infallible. He's human for sure and some of his throws and decisions proved that. However, all the success and failure happened in the heat of the game. Unlike Tomlin and his staff who have the luxury of planning their game strategy and executing from the sidelines when no one is trying to push their nose into the turf.

For me, classic Ben took the team to a Lombardi vs Arizona with the drive that ended with the pass to Holmes in the corner of the end zone. That level of execution was stellar and should be a stamp on his HOF career. That drive, like Deebo's interception, should live on in Steeler lore. I wonder, did Tomlin play any role in either?

Compare that to Cowher's failure vs Dallas with the picks. Do you think the outcome might have been different if Ben was the QB for that game? Can one really give credit to Tomlin for the Arizona win and say Cowher failed vs Dallas? For me, it just goes to point out the importance of having the right QB at the right time.

It's harder for me to frame any moment or critical decision Tomlin has made in a decade. I guess because any brilliance he may have created came behind closed doors. On the sidelines, when he's visible, he seems to be more of a cheerleader than tactician. Compare that to the on side kick Sean Peyton called to steal the Lombardi from the Colts. That was a stroke of genius and showed real guts and creativity on the biggest stage of his career. I can't think of anything Tomlin has done in more than a decade that compares to or mirrors that level of guts or coaching. Maybe that's what living in one's fears is like?

With Tomlin the team has never had a losing season but, in my view, that's really just a sort of vanilla characterization. It's good but it's not really exciting nor overly entertaining. I'm spoiled I guess. A great coach gets it done in the playoffs. A good coach has a good regular season record. For some the latter seems to be enough. For me the excessive failures up to and including the playoffs indicate the Tomlin hiring was not the best decision the Rooney's ever made.
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Barney
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#10
10-12-2019, 09:18 PM

Not sure if this was mentioned for the short list of Tomlin accolades but I do feel that he does a pretty good job of "Next Man Up".
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Rollers
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#11
10-13-2019, 12:21 AM

Here's the final word on Tomlin. He sucks at game day prep. He sucks at making adjustments during the game. He sucks at coaching up the talent he has been given on defense. And he sucks at evaluation talent. Other than that the Ham Sammich is doing a great job. His act has gotten old and it's time for him to move on. Period. If he's back next year we go nowhere again. No losing seasons though. We're competitive though, yadda yadda yadda. The standard is competing for a Lombardi. And we haven't done that for YEARS now. One more thing. He SUCKS at being involved in coaching during the game. He does nothing during the game except to stand there watching the game. Ok I'm done with the Ham Sammich. Ya'all wanna defend him go ahead.
(This post was last modified: 10-13-2019, 12:22 AM by Rollers.)
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mcmillenandwife
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#12
10-13-2019, 02:12 AM

(10-12-2019, 11:57 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: Tim, did you even bother to watch the first half of XXX? That was brilliance? I’m not exactly sure the boys were that much better, and frankly, in the first half, the Steeler stunk it up.  

Coaching is about adjustments. Cowher made them beautifully in this game. Swap O'Dollar for Ben and we win this going away. 

Pittsburgh had early jitters. How many times have you seen Dermontti Dawson snap a ball 5 feet over a QB's head? In my memory, it's one time... and it was in Super Bowl XXX. This was Dallas' 3rd time to the rodeo in 4 years. They didn't have to overcome the Super Bowl "wide eyes" that the Steelers faced.

But the Steelers weathered the storm of a terrible first quarter against an experienced, dynastic team filled with Hall of Famers and went into the locker room at halftime trailing only 13-7.

Then, O'Dollar throws his first horrendous INT, setting up a 20-7 Dallas lead. Then we fail on a 4th and 1 near midfield. Did the team crumble? Hell no. They continued to fight, eventually added a FG to make it 20-10... and then Cowher called "Surprise Onside." One of the great calls in Super Bowl history. Had the Steelers won, they would still be talking about this call.

So the Steelers go right down and score a TD -- 10 unanswered -- against a now exhausted Dallas defense. Bam Morris just strolls untouched into the end zone. 20-17.

The Steelers HAD them. They had taken over the game. Remember Levon Kirkland leaping through the air and sacking Aikman on 3rd down? WE HAD THEM. Late 4th quarter, trailing 20-17 with ALL the momentum in our favor... and O'Dollar throws it AGAIN right to Larry-flippin'-Brown. 

Game over.

Despite the loss, the coaching was BRILLIANT in Super Bowl XXX. One of Cowher's finest moments IMO. It's such a shame the game was thrown away.



(10-12-2019, 11:57 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: And while we are discussing the mid 90’s teams, how  do you explain the meltdowns vs SanDiego, the 3 more yards game, 4 quarter melt down vs the Chiefs, Korkies endzone pick vs the Broncos, and frankly, Cowher was no Patriot slayer either. Those were loaded teams, Super Bowl contenders. Everyone of those teams had somebody that choked at the wrong time.

Heck, Cowher would have lost his only super bowl if Holmgren had managed the clock well, and we had a world class defense, and a QB that played like he had a bad hangover.

You're making my point about Cowher having shit QB's, Dave.
  • 1994 AFCC, San Diego's strategy was to make O'Dollar win it (54 fucking throws in a game we led almost the entire way!). He couldn't. 
  • 1993 Wildcard, O'Dollar vs. Montana. Puh-LEEZ. 
  • 1997 AFCC vs. Denver, Kordell vs. Elway. Puh-LEEZ. 
  • 1996 Playoffs vs. New England: Kordell vs. Bledsoe.
  • 1997 AFCC: Kordell vs. Elway
  • 2001 AFCC: Kordell vs. Brady/Bledsoe
  • 2002 Playoffs - Tommy flippin' Maddox under center. 
  • 2004 AFCC: Rookie Big Ben vs. Tom Brady and Spygate. 
  • 2005 Super Bowl: In his second year with Ben, Cowher gets a Lombardi. 
Give Cowher Big Ben for his entire career, and the Steelers win at least 2 more Super Bowls IMO. The '93-'97 Steelers would've been off the flippin' hook with a Hall of Fame QB under center. The Steelers went as far as the mediocre QB's they had could take them. 


Say what you want about Ben's rough performance in SB XL. The guy WINS. He scored our first TD (arguably lol), and that play was set up by a crazy improv bomb that ONLY Ben could make happen. 

And unlike Holmgren, Cowher DID manage the clock well. And just like the onside kick in Super Bowl XXX, Cowher had a brilliant gadget play ready for Super Bowl XL: Fake-39 Toss X-Reverse Pass. It broke the game wide open. 

If ever there was a game won by coaching, it was Super Bowl XL. You need to rethink your position. 



(10-12-2019, 11:57 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: Outside of Belichek, Harbaugh, and maybe Carrol, and none of them are going anywhere, for the life of me, I can’t think of another coach that is going to produce better results. Reid? Really?

We need fresh blood. I'm not a talent scout for coaches, but I'm confident there is future Hall of Fame head coach or two among the current ranks of NFL assistant coaches. Who should it be? I don't know. But I believe Tomlin's window of opportunity has passed, he's lost his magic in Pittsburgh (could still probably take another team to a Super Bowl) and it's time for change. 

I sincerely hope Coach Tomlin proves me wrong. This is one instance where I would gladly eat crow.
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mcmillenandwife
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#13
10-13-2019, 03:18 AM

(10-12-2019, 09:10 PM)sandfan Wrote: I believe Ben's talents were the driving force for the teams record.  More than Tomlin, more than the staff and more than the rest of the squad. He's not infallible.  He's human for sure and some of his throws and decisions proved that.  However, all the success and failure happened in the heat of the game. Unlike Tomlin and his staff who have the luxury of planning their game strategy and executing from the sidelines when no one is trying to push their nose into the turf.  

For me, classic Ben took the team to a Lombardi vs Arizona with the drive that ended with the pass to Holmes in the corner of the end zone.  That level of execution was stellar and should be a stamp on his HOF career.  That drive, like Deebo's interception, should live on in Steeler lore.  I wonder, did Tomlin play any role in either?  

Compare that to Cowher's failure vs Dallas with the picks.  Do you think the outcome might have been different if Ben was the QB for that game? Can one really give credit to Tomlin for the Arizona win and say Cowher failed vs Dallas?  For me, it just goes to point out the importance of having the right QB at the right time.  

Yes, to nearly all of this. Great players make great plays. Great coaches put them in position to do so.

I don't question Tomlin's coaching in Super Bowl XLIII. Not one bit. He put the players in position to win so they could execute to the best of their abilities. I don't question his coaching in Super Bowl XLV, either, although we lost. He kept us in the game despite a very rough start, and if not for a couple of bad turnovers (the INT of Ben's deep pass for a TD and Mendenahall's critical late fumble), the outcome likely would've been different. 

My beef with Tomlin began with the loss to Tim Tebow in the playoffs, followed by the stretch that began in the middle of 2012 in which Tomlin went 2-9. Including that loss to Tim Tebow, the Steelers are 3-5 in the postseason since 2011, and we could easily be 1-5 if not for a few boneheaded penalties by the Bungles and a failed 2-point conversion in KC. IMO, the coaching has been very suspect in all of these playoff games other than perhaps the 2017 spanking of Miami. 

Tomlin's handling of AB and Bell, his repeated failures in the postseason and his failure to maximize having a Hall of Fame QB under center his entire career (until week 2 of this year) put the exclamation point on my displeasure with him. 

BTW, Cowher beats the piss out of Dallas in SB XXX with Ben under center instead of O'Dollar. Not a doubt in my mind. 


(10-12-2019, 09:10 PM)sandfan Wrote: It's harder for me to frame any moment or critical decision Tomlin has made in a decade.  I guess because any brilliance he may have created came behind closed doors.  On the sidelines, when he's visible, he seems to be more of a cheerleader than tactician.  Compare that to the on side kick Sean Peyton called to steal the Lombardi from the Colts.  That was a stroke of genius and showed real guts and creativity on the biggest stage of his career.  I can't think of anything Tomlin has done in more than a decade that compares to or mirrors that level of guts or coaching. Maybe that's what living in one's fears is like?

This is so true. 

Speaking of fears... no one fears Mike Tomlin as a coach. NO ONE. Well... except maybe some Pittsburgh fans.  Laugh

You never hear anyone talk about, "I wonder what Mike Tomlin has up his sleeve?" There's nothing innovative in anything he does. Early on, I thought he brought freshness, relate-ability and generally sound tactics to the team. He came in and didn't fuck it up. His fresh approach was able to give Cowher's players an edge that Cowher had perhaps lost. 

The problem is, I think Tomlin also lost that edge about 7 years ago. And he's not an innovator. So what's left? Stand numbly on the sidelines like there's nothing you can really do about what's happening on the field, then give canned postgame postmortem's to the media, apparently.



(10-12-2019, 09:10 PM)sandfan Wrote: With Tomlin the team has never had a losing season but, in my view, that's really just a sort of vanilla characterization.  It's good but it's not really exciting nor overly entertaining.  I'm spoiled I guess.  A great coach gets it done in the playoffs.  A good coach has a good regular season record. For some the latter seems to be enough.  For me the excessive failures up to and including the playoffs indicate the Tomlin hiring was not the best decision the Rooney's ever made.

I'm okay with his hiring. Two Super Bowl appearances with one win in his first 4 years was pretty damn good. The problem is, we should've been in at least 2 more Super Bowls since then with how loaded with talent his teams have been throughout his tenure. But we haven't.

So yeah, I'm okay with his hiring. I'm just not okay with the fact that he's still here after underperforming since 2012.
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dbsfgyd1
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#14
10-13-2019, 06:31 AM

(10-13-2019, 02:12 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 11:57 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: Tim, did you even bother to watch the first half of XXX? That was brilliance? I’m not exactly sure the boys were that much better, and frankly, in the first half, the Steeler stunk it up.  

Coaching is about adjustments. Cowher made them beautifully in this game. Swap O'Dollar for Ben and we win this going away. 

Pittsburgh had early jitters. How many times have you seen Dermontti Dawson snap a ball 5 feet over a QB's head? In my memory, it's one time... and it was in Super Bowl XXX. This was Dallas' 3rd time to the rodeo in 4 years. They didn't have to overcome the Super Bowl "wide eyes" that the Steelers faced.

But the Steelers weathered the storm of a terrible first quarter against an experienced, dynastic team filled with Hall of Famers and went into the locker room at halftime trailing only 13-7.

Then, O'Dollar throws his first horrendous INT, setting up a 20-7 Dallas lead. Then we fail on a 4th and 1 near midfield. Did the team crumble? Hell no. They continued to fight, eventually added a FG to make it 20-10... and then Cowher called "Surprise Onside." One of the great calls in Super Bowl history. Had the Steelers won, they would still be talking about this call.

So the Steelers go right down and score a TD -- 10 unanswered -- against a now exhausted Dallas defense. Bam Morris just strolls untouched into the end zone. 20-17.

The Steelers HAD them. They had taken over the game. Remember Levon Kirkland leaping through the air and sacking Aikman on 3rd down? WE HAD THEM. Late 4th quarter, trailing 20-17 with ALL the momentum in our favor... and O'Dollar throws it AGAIN right to Larry-flippin'-Brown. 

Game over.

Despite the loss, the coaching was BRILLIANT in Super Bowl XXX. One of Cowher's finest moments IMO. It's such a shame the game was thrown away.



(10-12-2019, 11:57 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: And while we are discussing the mid 90’s teams, how  do you explain the meltdowns vs SanDiego, the 3 more yards game, 4 quarter melt down vs the Chiefs, Korkies endzone pick vs the Broncos, and frankly, Cowher was no Patriot slayer either. Those were loaded teams, Super Bowl contenders. Everyone of those teams had somebody that choked at the wrong time.

Heck, Cowher would have lost his only super bowl if Holmgren had managed the clock well, and we had a world class defense, and a QB that played like he had a bad hangover.

You're making my point about Cowher having shit QB's, Dave.
  • 1994 AFCC, San Diego's strategy was to make O'Dollar win it (54 fucking throws in a game we led almost the entire way!). He couldn't. 
  • 1993 Wildcard, O'Dollar vs. Montana. Puh-LEEZ. 
  • 1997 AFCC vs. Denver, Kordell vs. Elway. Puh-LEEZ. 
  • 1996 Playoffs vs. New England: Kordell vs. Bledsoe.
  • 1997 AFCC: Kordell vs. Elway
  • 2001 AFCC: Kordell vs. Brady/Bledsoe
  • 2002 Playoffs - Tommy flippin' Maddox under center. 
  • 2004 AFCC: Rookie Big Ben vs. Tom Brady and Spygate. 
  • 2005 Super Bowl: In his second year with Ben, Cowher gets a Lombardi. 
Give Cowher Big Ben for his entire career, and the Steelers win at least 2 more Super Bowls IMO. The '93-'97 Steelers would've been off the flippin' hook with a Hall of Fame QB under center. The Steelers went as far as the mediocre QB's they had could take them. 


Say what you want about Ben's rough performance in SB XL. The guy WINS. He scored our first TD (arguably lol), and that play was set up by a crazy improv bomb that ONLY Ben could make happen. 

And unlike Holmgren, Cowher DID manage the clock well. And just like the onside kick in Super Bowl XXX, Cowher had a brilliant gadget play ready for Super Bowl XL: Fake-39 Toss X-Reverse Pass. It broke the game wide open. 

If ever there was a game won by coaching, it was Super Bowl XL. You need to rethink your position. 



(10-12-2019, 11:57 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: Outside of Belichek, Harbaugh, and maybe Carrol, and none of them are going anywhere, for the life of me, I can’t think of another coach that is going to produce better results. Reid? Really?

We need fresh blood. I'm not a talent scout for coaches, but I'm confident there is future Hall of Fame head coach or two among the current ranks of NFL assistant coaches. Who should it be? I don't know. But I believe Tomlin's window of opportunity has passed, he's lost his magic in Pittsburgh (could still probably take another team to a Super Bowl) and it's time for change. 

I sincerely hope Coach Tomlin proves me wrong. This is one instance where I would gladly eat crow.

Tim, as you well know, I’ve ate my share of crow here over the last 20 years lol! I’ll agree there is something amiss with the team, where we differ is I don’t think it’s 100% on Tomlin. 

But let me add a few items from the Cowher  teams that just maybe you blamed failure 100% on the QB. How about these. DJ Johnson’s personal foul on a yard 3rd down play vs the Chiefs, McKyer’s blown coverage for a TD vs San Diego, Lake brain farting and not covering Papuno for a key first down also vs San Diego, how about a certain WR that ran out of bounds on punt coverage, and the Re-kick resulting in a touchdown Vs the Pats for instance. These games were all winnable with the quality of QB play we were getting in those those games. As for XXX, if we would have bothered to show up in the first half, just maybe O’Donnell isn’t passing at that point. We were running the ball pretty well. just saying. 

As for the team today, I don’t think we get the straight poop  from the media, like Ben’s elbow for instance. Did any of us have any inkling that he was having trouble? Well the Patriots sure knew he couldn’t sling it down field and played the best defense possible for the short game.

Losing the WR coach, then bringing in a coaching retread that was never all that to begin with to replace him. I would not be entirely surprised that there is a major conflict issue here with Fichtner. Moncrief is damaged good, Washington has skills but is never open. Hines was never a burner either, but they sure enough schemed enough to get him open. A lot.

Finally here we are at year five of the Butler defense regime, and he still doesn’t understand that a tight end is an eligible receiver. This is ” Obviously” a systemic flaw in the system if ever there was one. I dunno, can anybody explain why this guy is still around in a coordinator capacity?
(This post was last modified: 10-14-2019, 04:14 AM by dbsfgyd1.)
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Chucktownsteeler
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#15
10-14-2019, 09:46 AM

If it were not for Tomlin we might not have Haden or Minkah. Just sayin'.


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dbsfgyd1
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#16
10-15-2019, 12:17 AM

Look guys, I’ll gladly agree Tomlin has had more than a few WTF moments. But truth be told, all coaches have them, even St. Billy B.

To expect a championship team every year is an unrealistic expectation, and that the only reason we haven’t won had a super bowl win in the last 10 years is Tomlin is absurd.

Tomlin has no monopoly on talent, or game plan ideas, nor can he control injuries, dropped pass, badly timed penalties, fumbles, or guys that just don’t have “it” that day.

But going on the road, for a must win game, starting your 4th string QB against a better than their record squad, led by a hall of fame caliber QB, with a secondary minus their best CB, 2nd best running back, starting fullback, their best DL man for 3/4 of the game, losing a starting CB, RB, and  OLB along the way, say what you want about history, that was one hell of a coaching job that show up, evidence of a solid job that didn’t happen overnight.
(This post was last modified: 10-15-2019, 12:29 AM by dbsfgyd1.)
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Noll and Cowher teams no more
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#17
10-15-2019, 12:21 AM

(10-15-2019, 12:17 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: Look guys, I’ll gladly agree Tomlin has had more than a few WTF moments. But truth be told, all coaches have them, even St. Billy B.

To expect a championship team every year is an unrealistic expectation, and that the only reason we haven’t won had a super bowl win in the last 10 years is Tomlin is absurd.

Tomlin has no monopoly on talent, or game plan ideas, nor can he control injuries, dropped pass, badly timed penalties, fumbles, or guys that just don’t have “it” that day.

But going on the road starting your  4th QB against a better than their record squad, led by a hall of fame caliber QB, with a secondary minus their best CB, 2nd best running back, starting fullback, their best DL man for 3/4 of the game, losing a starting CB, RB, and  OLB along the way, say what you want about history, but that was one hell of a coaching job last night.

AMEN!
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Chucktownsteeler
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#18
10-15-2019, 12:26 AM

Great coaching for 3 quarters. We let them hang around due to a questionable pass (which gave them life, which the CB wanted more than the WR) ad playing "not to lose".

I do agree, great coaching for 3 quarters.

However, with the bye week coming up ad a Miami Monday night game we can be right back in the thick of it. Next 3 games are at home and I could see us winning 3 of next 4, maybe 4 of 4.


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Jbsptfn
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#19
10-19-2019, 10:55 AM

Quote:You're making my point about Cowher having shit QB's, Dave.
  • 1994 AFCC, San Diego's strategy was to make O'Dollar win it (54 fucking throws in a game we led almost the entire way!). He couldn't. 
  • 1993 Wildcard, O'Dollar vs. Montana. Puh-LEEZ. 
  • 1997 AFCC vs. Denver, Kordell vs. Elway. Puh-LEEZ. 
  • 1996 Playoffs vs. New England: Kordell vs. Bledsoe.
  • 1997 AFCC: Kordell vs. Elway
  • 2001 AFCC: Kordell vs. Brady/Bledsoe
  • 2002 Playoffs - Tommy flippin' Maddox under center. 
  • 2004 AFCC: Rookie Big Ben vs. Tom Brady and Spygate. 
  • 2005 Super Bowl: In his second year with Ben, Cowher gets a Lombardi. 

Give Cowher Big Ben for his entire career, and the Steelers win at least 2 more Super Bowls IMO. The '93-'97 Steelers would've been off the flippin' hook with a Hall of Fame QB under center. The Steelers went as far as the mediocre QB's they had could take them.


Pittsburgh's failure in the Cowher Era (until 05) was a hodgepodge of QB and Cowher (except 97. Denver was a better team, hands down). Bill did make bad moves in some games, but O'Donnell choked some games away (like SB 30 and the 92 AFC Divisional against Buffaluck when he missed a wide open Barry Foster in the second quarter. He should have been benched for Bubby at halftime. Some Steeler fans think that Bubby should have started that game).
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mcmillenandwife
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#20
10-19-2019, 02:19 PM

(10-19-2019, 10:55 AM)Jbsptfn Wrote: Pittsburgh's failure in the Cowher Era (until 05) was a hodgepodge of QB and Cowher (except 97. Denver was a better team, hands down). Bill did make bad moves in some games, but O'Donnell choked some games away (like SB 30 and the 92 AFC Divisional against Buffaluck when he missed a wide open Barry Foster in the second quarter. He should have been benched for Bubby at halftime. Some Steeler fans think that Bubby should have started that game).

You know, the thing is, we HAD that Denver team. That game turned on a couple of Kordell Stewart INTs. The one in the end zone just before the half was devastating. The momentum shift from potentially being up 17-10 or even 21-10 to suddenly trailing 24-14 left the Steelers pretty shell-shocked. 

I do agree, Cowher has some culpability. While I don't think our QB's were Super Bowl material in the pre-Ben era, the rest of the team certainly was. Multiple times. And we got taken down by lesser teams. Multiple times. As you said, quarterbacking was part of it. Most of it, IMO. But Cowher shares at least some of the responsibility. 

But again... once Bill got Ben, it was game on. The run from 7-5 to the Super Bowl in 2005 was pretty amazing, and Bill did a great job in setting that up.
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Krunch
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#21
10-20-2019, 01:10 AM

For what it's worth, Cower had to suffer through Donaloser (Donahe) as the GM. That guy was a one-man wrecking crew in trading away or otherwise letting go several very core players from Cower's squad. Not only did their talent go away, but their senior wisdom and locker rom leadership as well.


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mcmillenandwife
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#22
10-20-2019, 02:18 AM

(10-20-2019, 01:10 AM)Krunch Wrote: For what it's worth, Cower had to suffer through Donaloser (Donahe) as the GM.  That guy was a one-man wrecking crew in trading away or otherwise letting go several very core players from Cower's squad.  Not only did their talent go away, but their senior wisdom and locker rom leadership as well.

Agreed. I've never forgiven Donahoe for letting Rod Woodson get away. They should've found a way to work it out. Instead, Woodson had to get his ring in flippin' Baltimore as a key component of one of the greatest defenses of the era. He should've retired a Steeler.
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Jbsptfn
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#23
10-20-2019, 05:35 PM

(10-19-2019, 02:19 PM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(10-19-2019, 10:55 AM)Jbsptfn Wrote: Pittsburgh's failure in the Cowher Era (until 05) was a hodgepodge of QB and Cowher (except 97. Denver was a better team, hands down). Bill did make bad moves in some games, but O'Donnell choked some games away (like SB 30 and the 92 AFC Divisional against Buffaluck when he missed a wide open Barry Foster in the second quarter. He should have been benched for Bubby at halftime. Some Steeler fans think that Bubby should have started that game).

You know, the thing is, we HAD that Denver team. That game turned on a couple of Kordell Stewart INTs. The one in the end zone just before the half was devastating. The momentum shift from potentially being up 17-10 or even 21-10 to suddenly trailing 24-14 left the Steelers pretty shell-shocked. 

I do agree, Cowher has some culpability. While I don't think our QB's were Super Bowl material in the pre-Ben era, the rest of the team certainly was. Multiple times. And we got taken down by lesser teams. Multiple times. As you said, quarterbacking was part of it. Most of it, IMO. But Cowher shares at least some of the responsibility. 

But again... once Bill got Ben, it was game on. The run from 7-5 to the Super Bowl in 2005 was pretty amazing, and Bill did a great job in setting that up.

As a Denver fan, here's the thing: The Broncos were up 7-0 and had the ball around Pittsburgh's 20 in the first half before NT Joel Steed took the ball away from Davis. Then, the Steelers went up 14-7 and had the ball around Denver's 30 before making a big mistake: Putting the ball in Kordell's hands. He threw an INT in the end zone to Crockett, and it was the beginning of the end for you guys.

I never bought Kordell as a QB. Should have been a WR and utility guy his whole career. In 2000, the guy on the Steeler Tribute site said that there were people wearing 10 Pennington jerseys in Pittsburgh before the draft. At the time, maybe they should have taken him.

As for Cowher, I know a Steeler fan who hates him with a passion. The first time I met him, he called him a moron several times (he criticizes Cowher constantly).
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mcmillenandwife
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#24
10-20-2019, 08:15 PM

(10-20-2019, 05:35 PM)Jbsptfn Wrote: As a Denver fan, here's the thing: The Broncos were up 7-0 and had the ball around Pittsburgh's 20 in the first half before NT Joel Steed took the ball away from Davis. Then, the Steelers went up 14-7 and had the ball around Denver's 30 before making a big mistake: Putting the ball in Kordell's hands. He threw an INT in the end zone to Crockett, and it was the beginning of the end for you guys.

I never bought Kordell as a QB. Should have been a WR and utility guy his whole career. In 2000, the guy on the Steeler Tribute site said that there were people wearing 10 Pennington jerseys in Pittsburgh before the draft. At the time, maybe they should have taken him.

As for Cowher, I know a Steeler fan who hates him with a passion. The first time I met him, he called him a moron several times (he criticizes Cowher constantly).


Yeah, there were a LOT of Cowher haters... as many (if not more) than Tomlin haters. Goes with the territory, I guess. That's the irony of being 1-4 in home AFC Championship games, as Cowher was. Hosting 5 AFCC games at home is impressive... but when you get that close that many times, you need to find a way to win more of them or folks are gonna call for your head. 

I wasn't a Cowher hater. I wasn't a Noll hater at the end, either (they were definitely out there). And I'm not a Tomlin hater. I'm especially thankful for the first 4-5 years of Tomlin's tenure in Pittsburgh. He gave us the edge we needed to win another Super Bowl. I just think things have run their natural course. I would like nothing more than to have Tomlin prove me wrong, but I'm not convinced he has what it takes to get this team back to the Promised Land. 

Maybe next year, assuming Ben is back and healthy?

P.S. -- Pennington in Pittsburgh might've been interesting. Maybe that Steelers O-line could've kept him upright and healthy? Not sure Pennington had "the stuff" either, but he was certainly less turnover-prone that Kordell.
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