Game day check-in, Dolfs vs. Steelers
mcmillenandwife
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#91
10-30-2019, 03:27 PM

Yeah, every deep pass with Rudolph seems to be a jump ball. He just throws 'em up for grabs, and they are generally under-thrown. They're not back shoulder throws, either; they're just poorly thrown floaters that are up for grabs.

I also agree he's super-late getting the ball out, and he has stone feet in the pocket. It makes me uncomfortable to watch him. His stance is very wide, his release is slow, he 's constantly patting the ball and he doesn't seem to feel what's going on around him. It's a throwing style I don't think I've seen before.

I don't mean to shred the guy. We could do far worse. He's playing pretty well, all things considered, other than his putrid start against Miami. And again, I give him props for overcoming that to have a pretty solid second half. But he's certainly not gonna make anyone forget about Ben.
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mcmillenandwife
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#92
10-30-2019, 03:59 PM

By the way, this quote illustrates what I like about Mason Rudolph:

After a game that saw him play much better the rest of the way and the Steelers coming back to win, Rudolph said getting booed was a reminder that Steelers fans have high expectations, as they should.

“I would’ve booed that performance too. We were coming out slow. This is the Pittsburgh Steelers. There’s a standard here,” Rudolph said, via Brooke Pryor of ESPN.
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#93
10-30-2019, 10:55 PM

(10-30-2019, 12:04 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(10-29-2019, 09:34 PM)Noll and Cowher teams no more Wrote: I think Rudolph is only going to get better from here on out...only three career games so far as a starter. He is starting to click with his receivers....I like what I see.

He's proving to be pretty resilient. I like him. Short memory after those nasty early INTs, and he seems to have a certain "winning" edge to him. Concerned about a few negatives, though. He has feet of stone, below-average pocket presence/awareness, his accuracy in general is suspect and becomes even more so on those rare occasions when he moves around. I think some of these things are correctable with coaching, and some will improve with experience. But he doesn't look like a long-term starter to me. A solid backup with a winning attitude, yes, but not the heir-apparent to Ben IMO.

Kinda early in his career to make this assessment in my opinion. Also of all people, you seem to have a short memory, Tim.

Took Bradshaw 3-4 seasons to look like he was a starter and Ben was not lighting it up by no means his first year but did a good job not losing games with his arm....he also had the luxury of having Hines, Randle El and Plaxico to throw to along with a good run game to not put the pressure all on him.

Rudolph, during preseason and before he was knocked out was making pretty good decisions with the plays he was given. around here and the other Steeler sites I visit, there were people complaining he didn't throw downfield. He comes back after a two plus week layoff and shows rust and timing issues that in my opinion would be expected but bounces back and does a pretty decent job to come from behind and help win the game while throwing downfield and he is still getting criticized. 

In case anybody noticed, the team is fielding only one proven receiver in JuJu while the rest are a second year player (Washington), a rookie (Johnson)and three others that either can't catch (Moncrief), only run a fly route (Holton) or is playing one hand touch and only get 2 yards per catch (Switzer).

You all are a tough group. would only be satisfied if Rudolph had an 80+% comp percentage, 350+ yards and 4tds per game and thats not going to happen with these receivers. Wouldn't even happen if Hines or Plax were Mason's targets.

Now once again I'm not crowning Rudolph the next franchise qb for the Steelers but I'm at least gonna watch this play out and hope he can be the future because he is all we have for the time being till either Ben comes back and hopefully plays out what little he has left, which might only be a couple more seasons or we draft another qb and see what he brings. 
I'm also happy that we are not having to stomach watching Landry Jones or Dobbs leading this offense.
(This post was last modified: 10-30-2019, 10:56 PM by Noll and Cowher teams no more.)
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mcmillenandwife
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#94
10-31-2019, 01:57 AM

(10-30-2019, 10:55 PM)Noll and Cowher teams no more Wrote:
(10-30-2019, 12:04 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(10-29-2019, 09:34 PM)Noll and Cowher teams no more Wrote: I think Rudolph is only going to get better from here on out...only three career games so far as a starter. He is starting to click with his receivers....I like what I see.

He's proving to be pretty resilient. I like him. Short memory after those nasty early INTs, and he seems to have a certain "winning" edge to him. Concerned about a few negatives, though. He has feet of stone, below-average pocket presence/awareness, his accuracy in general is suspect and becomes even more so on those rare occasions when he moves around. I think some of these things are correctable with coaching, and some will improve with experience. But he doesn't look like a long-term starter to me. A solid backup with a winning attitude, yes, but not the heir-apparent to Ben IMO.

Kinda early in his career to make this assessment in my opinion. Also of all people, you seem to have a short memory, Tim.

Took Bradshaw 3-4 seasons to look like he was a starter and Ben was not lighting it up by no means his first year but did a good job not losing games with his arm....he also had the luxury of having Hines, Randle El and Plaxico to throw to along with a good run game to not put the pressure all on him.


Yes, it's definitely too early to know what the future holds for Rudolph. But it's not too early to form and share an opinion based on early results, which is what I was doing. 

I definitely do NOT have a short memory. I think you know this. 

Two points...

1) Regarding Bradshaw: There is ZERO comparison between Bradshaw and Rudolph. ZERO. Bradshaw was a once-in-a-generation talent, a #1 overall pick, a ridiculously talented player from a small school whose offensive system was to let Terry go out and improvise because he was so much better than everyone else on the field. He came to a terrible team (1-13) with a new, young head coach and very little talent around him. Terry didn't have a quarterback coach for most of his career (Babe Parilli was only there from '72-'74). Hell, he didn't even have an offensive coordinator. Think about that: NO OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR. Bradshaw called his own plays, of course, Everyone knows that. But calling the plays or not, it's unthinkable that a quarterback would have to function without an OC... and win 4 Super Bowls in the process.  

Meanwhile, Rudolph has simply been asked to sit at the controls of the Starship Enterprise and let Captain Kirk tell him what to do and how to do it. There is ZERO comparison.  

2) I think you are greatly underestimating how truly outstanding Ben was from the get-go. By his 3rd start, he was taking over games. He was clearly the best player on offense, and his insertion into the starting lineup almost instantly transformed that team from a talented underachiever to a heavyweight champ. The guy wasn't perfect, but he had Hall of Fame written all over him right from the start. 

Mason Rudolph has played respectably well. He's overachieving right now, IMO, which says a lot about his character. I am very happy he's a Steeler and I respect the performance he's delivering so far. But I felt the same way about Charlie Batch. I respected him, I appreciated him, I had reasonable confidence in him... but I knew he was never going to be "the guy."

Maybe Rudolph will end up being "the guy"? But I've been watching this game for a LOOONG time, and based on what I'm seeing from him so far, my gut tells me no. I certainly could be wrong, and in fact, would be happy to be wrong. I wish him nothing but success and I will be cheering him on toward excellence. It would be awesome to not have to wander for 20+ years between franchise QB's like we did between Bradshaw and Ben. 

To your point, it's too soon to actually "know." In the meantime, I feel okay with sharing my opinions about it. 



(10-30-2019, 10:55 PM)Noll and Cowher teams no more Wrote: Rudolph, during preseason and before he was knocked out was making pretty good decisions with the plays he was given. around here and the other Steeler sites I visit, there were people complaining he didn't throw downfield. He comes back after a two plus week layoff and shows rust and timing issues that in my opinion would be expected but bounces back and does a pretty decent job to come from behind and help win the game while throwing downfield and he is still getting criticized. 


Yes, all true. He's still growing into it and deserves some time to do so. Honestly, I think there's very little pressure on him at this point. Fans and coaches are giving him a certain level of grace due to the circumstances. However, if the hope of Ben's ultimate return wasn't there, I think that patience and grace would erode quickly. Rudolph is viewed as a placeholder right now. I don't think anyone expects him to lead us to a Super Bowl this year. Not saying it's impossible... but it's HIGHLY unlikely. As such, he's not going to feel the pressure he would if he was truly expected to be "the guy" for the next decade. I think the mentallity is, do the best you can, then be a quality backup behind Ben next year. Then... maybe a couple of years down the road, who knows?

His "rust" vs. Miami was understandable. Even if he hadn't been coming off an injury, he's still so young and inexperienced that his early performance was to kind of be expected. But he stayed cool, he adjusted, he got better as the game went on and he deserves kudos for that.

Please understand, at least as it pertains to me personally, the criticism of Rudolph isn't meant to be harsh. I'm just saying what I'm seeing. He's playing pretty solid ball for a young, inexperienced player. I'm really happy with how well he's doing. He has had a few bad moments, but he's had some moments of brilliance as well. I'm satisfied with his progress so far.

But I also see plenty of room for improvement. There are BASIC concerns I have about him if viewing him as a long-term solution. Significant concerns. I've expressed them elsewhere, so no need to rehash them here. 



(10-30-2019, 10:55 PM)Noll and Cowher teams no more Wrote: In case anybody noticed, the team is fielding only one proven receiver in JuJu while the rest are a second year player (Washington), a rookie (Johnson)and three others that either can't catch (Moncrief), only run a fly route (Holton) or is playing one hand touch and only get 2 yards per catch (Switzer).

You all are a tough group. would only be satisfied if Rudolph had an 80+% comp percentage, 350+ yards and 4tds per game and thats not going to happen with these receivers. Wouldn't even happen if Hines or Plax were Mason's targets.

Now once again I'm not crowning Rudolph the next franchise qb for the Steelers but I'm at least gonna watch this play out and hope he can be the future because he is all we have for the time being till either Ben comes back and hopefully plays out what little he has left, which might only be a couple more seasons or we draft another qb and see what he brings. 
I'm also happy that we are not having to stomach watching Landry Jones or Dobbs leading this offense.


Agreed, a very young, inexperienced group. Ben struggled with it, too. So it's obviously posing a challenge to Rudolph. He's adjusting well, IMO, and he's starting to develop some chemistry with Juju and he already had chemistry with Johnson (which continues to improve). 

As for being a tough group, again... I'm pretty satisfied with how he's doing so far. He's doing quite well as a backup. I'll say that again, though... as a backup. I do have doubts about his worthiness as a long-term solution. But I share your sentiments about Rudolph being head and shoulders above Landry Jones or Dobbs, both in talent/skill and leadership qualities. Rudolph does seem to be a "winner." Neither of those guys were, in my view. 

We'll see. Ultimately, my hope is for Ben to be back next season for at least another couple of years.  Pi_clover
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#95
10-31-2019, 10:00 PM

(10-31-2019, 01:57 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:  I think you are greatly underestimating how truly outstanding Ben was from the get-go. By his 3rd start, he was taking over games. He was clearly the best player on offense, and his insertion into the starting lineup almost instantly transformed that team from a talented underachiever to a heavyweight champ. The guy wasn't perfect, but he had Hall of Fame written all over him right from the start. 

Ben was NOT taking over games. He had a lot of help by having a strong run game. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/t...4/gamelog/ 
Like you, I'm not new to Steelers football or it's history and you know that. I've watched the games too. But I'm not going to pretend that the Ben of the last 10 seasons was the Ben in his rookie year.
In his 15 games as a starter (including the playoffs) the run game averaged 164 yards per game to 177 yards per game passing. Well balanced compared to what Mason or Hodges has had accept for last Monday night. Total TEAM effort not just Ben.

Look, I loved it when we drafted Ben. He was the only qb of the top 3 that year that I wanted and was ecstatic when we got him but by no means could anyone predict in his first season he would become a hall of famer. 
Who is to say that if Maddox did not go down that the Steelers would not of had the same results for the year. Ben was not supposed to play in his rookie season unless either injury, Tommy struggling, mop up duty or season lost. Just so happened to be the first of the four listed.
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mcmillenandwife
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#96
11-01-2019, 12:01 AM

(10-31-2019, 10:00 PM)Noll and Cowher teams no more Wrote:
(10-31-2019, 01:57 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:  I think you are greatly underestimating how truly outstanding Ben was from the get-go. By his 3rd start, he was taking over games. He was clearly the best player on offense, and his insertion into the starting lineup almost instantly transformed that team from a talented underachiever to a heavyweight champ. The guy wasn't perfect, but he had Hall of Fame written all over him right from the start. 

Ben was NOT taking over games. He had a lot of help by having a strong run game. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/t...4/gamelog/ 
Like you, I'm not new to Steelers football or it's history and you know that. I've watched the games too. But I'm not going to pretend that the Ben of the last 10 seasons was the Ben in his rookie year.
In his 15 games as a starter (including the playoffs) the run game averaged 164 yards per game to 177 yards per game passing. Well balanced compared to what Mason or Hodges has had accept for last Monday night. Total TEAM effort not just Ben.

Look, I loved it when we drafted Ben. He was the only qb of the top 3 that year that I wanted and was ecstatic when we got him but by no means could anyone predict in his first season he would become a hall of famer. 
Who is to say that if Maddox did not go down that the Steelers would not of had the same results for the year. Ben was not supposed to play in his rookie season unless either injury, Tommy struggling, mop up duty or season lost. Just so happened to be the first of the four listed.


You're clearly dug in on a position. Okay, fine. I "get" that you're not really a Big Ben guy, as evidenced by your suggestion earlier in the season that the 2019 Steelers might actually be "better" without Ben Roethlisberger.  Pi_shocked

But reality is reality. So I'll say it again in a slightly different way: The Steelers immediately began winning games with Ben that they would've lost without him. 

You've known me a long time, so I'm a little surprised you would try to post raw stats in a vacuum as a basis for your argument. His entire career, it's never been about what Ben has done "statistically." He's never been a particularly coveted fantasy football player, even in the midst of 5000-yard seasons. Because fantasy football is 100% stats-based. Ben has never been about stats. It's about what he does in BIG moments, clutch plays that "only" Ben Roethlisberger makes, that winning edge that he brought to the team from the moment he stepped on the field. Intangibles. First and foremost, it's about WINNING. And he's been winning since the start. 

Tommy F-ing Maddox??? Dude, seriously? The essentially same Steelers team that went 6-10 in 2003 behind Maddox and started 1-1 behind him in '04, but went 14-1 behind rookie Roethlisberger and won the Super Bowl the following year. Have you forgotten the two starts Maddox had in 2005 -- with a great team that went on to win the Super Bowl? Sweet Mother of Mary, that 2005 overtime loss to Jacksonville due to a stumbling, bumbling Tommy Maddox was one of the most embarrassing moments in team history. 

Look, I loved Tommy Maddox. But for crying out loud, dude, to suggest that he might've done just as well as Ben?  Scared Man, I can't even...

Go back and WATCH this stretch of games from 2004: vs Cleveland, at Dallas, vs New England, vs Philly. Watch. The. Games. There's no doubt, the Steelers had a great team in 2004. Outstanding at every position and in every phase. And this batch of 4 games is probably the best stretch of football the team had played since the late '70s. They had a similar stretch of almost flawless dominance vs Denver, Dallas, Washington and KC in '79. But take Ben out of the equation and it doesn't happen. He was the catalyst for all that winning. 

Again, Ben has elevated the team from the moment he took over. He was very obviously special. Immediately. Watch Ben throw a deep ball in 2004 and tell me how Mason Rudolph compares. Watch his pocket presence in 2004 and tell me how Mason Rudolph compares. Watch him win games LATE and tell me how Mason Rudolph compares. No disrespect to Mason Rudolph, but it's like they're playing a different game

Tommy flippin' Maddox, indeed.  Laugh

P.S. -- Phil Simms agrees with me, the stats don't tell the real story with Ben Roethlisberger (from Ben's rookie season):

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bbbooger
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#97
11-01-2019, 12:33 AM

(11-01-2019, 12:01 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(10-31-2019, 10:00 PM)Noll and Cowher teams no more Wrote:
(10-31-2019, 01:57 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote: ...
...
Go back and WATCH this stretch of games from 2004: vs Cleveland, at Dallas, ...
That game, the Dallas game in '04, is when I knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, Ben was a special talent!
(This post was last modified: 11-01-2019, 12:34 AM by bbbooger.)
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dbsfgyd1
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#98
11-02-2019, 09:55 AM

(11-01-2019, 12:01 AM)Omcmillenandwife Wrote:
(10-31-2019, 10:00 PM)Noll and Cowher teams no more Wrote:
(10-31-2019, 01:57 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:  I think you are greatly underestimating how truly outstanding Ben was from the get-go. By his 3rd start, he was taking over games. He was clearly the best player on offense, and his insertion into the starting lineup almost instantly transformed that team from a talented underachiever to a heavyweight champ. The guy wasn't perfect, but he had Hall of Fame written all over him right from the start. 

Ben was NOT taking over games. He had a lot of help by having a strong run game. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/t...4/gamelog/ 
Like you, I'm not new to Steelers football or it's history and you know that. I've watched the games too. But I'm not going to pretend that the Ben of the last 10 seasons was the Ben in his rookie year.
In his 15 games as a starter (including the playoffs) the run game averaged 164 yards per game to 177 yards per game passing. Well balanced compared to what Mason or Hodges has had accept for last Monday night. Total TEAM effort not just Ben.

Look, I loved it when we drafted Ben. He was the only qb of the top 3 that year that I wanted and was ecstatic when we got him but by no means could anyone predict in his first season he would become a hall of famer. 
Who is to say that if Maddox did not go down that the Steelers would not of had the same results for the year. Ben was not supposed to play in his rookie season unless either injury, Tommy struggling, mop up duty or season lost. Just so happened to be the first of the four listed.


You're clearly dug in on a position. Okay, fine. I "get" that you're not really a Big Ben guy, as evidenced by your suggestion earlier in the season that the 2019 Steelers might actually be "better" without Ben Roethlisberger.  Pi_shocked

But reality is reality. So I'll say it again in a slightly different way: The Steelers immediately began winning games with Ben that they would've lost without him. 

You've known me a long time, so I'm a little surprised you would try to post raw stats in a vacuum as a basis for your argument. His entire career, it's never been about what Ben has done "statistically." He's never been a particularly coveted fantasy football player, even in the midst of 5000-yard seasons. Because fantasy football is 100% stats-based. Ben has never been about stats. It's about what he does in BIG moments, clutch plays that "only" Ben Roethlisberger makes, that winning edge that he brought to the team from the moment he stepped on the field. Intangibles. First and foremost, it's about WINNING. And he's been winning since the start. 

Tommy F-ing Maddox??? Dude, seriously? The essentially same Steelers team that went 6-10 in 2003 behind Maddox and started 1-1 behind him in '04, but went 14-1 behind rookie Roethlisberger and won the Super Bowl the following year. Have you forgotten the two starts Maddox had in 2005 -- with a great team that went on to win the Super Bowl? Sweet Mother of Mary, that 2005 overtime loss to Jacksonville due to a stumbling, bumbling Tommy Maddox was one of the most embarrassing moments in team history. 

Look, I loved Tommy Maddox. But for crying out loud, dude, to suggest that he might've done just as well as Ben?  Scared Man, I can't even...

Go back and WATCH this stretch of games from 2004: vs Cleveland, at Dallas, vs New England, vs Philly. Watch. The. Games. There's no doubt, the Steelers had a great team in 2004. Outstanding at every position and in every phase. And this batch of 4 games is probably the best stretch of football the team had played since the late '70s. They had a similar stretch of almost flawless dominance vs Denver, Dallas, Washington and KC in '79. But take Ben out of the equation and it doesn't happen. He was the catalyst for all that winning. 

Again, Ben has elevated the team from the moment he took over. He was very obviously special. Immediately. Watch Ben throw a deep ball in 2004 and tell me how Mason Rudolph compares. Watch his pocket presence in 2004 and tell me how Mason Rudolph compares. Watch him win games LATE and tell me how Mason Rudolph compares. No disrespect to Mason Rudolph, but it's like they're playing a different game

Tommy flippin' Maddox, indeed.  Laugh

P.S. -- Phil Simms agrees with me, the stats don't tell the real story with Ben Roethlisberger (from Ben's rookie season):


Tim,

I would LOVE to see that stretch of games. Anybody out there have them?

I remember watching his rookie year thinking that he reminded me of Jim Kelly ( I was a fan of his since his USFL days with the Houston Gamblers) in his prime.
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mcmillenandwife
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#99
11-02-2019, 12:19 PM

(11-02-2019, 09:55 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: Tim,

I would LOVE to see that stretch of games. Anybody out there have them?

I remember watching his rookie year thinking that he reminded me of Jim Kelly ( I was a fan of his since his USFL days with the Houston Gamblers) in his prime.

You're kidding, right? Pi_shocked  You know they're all on this site, don't you? 

2004 Steelers 34 vs Browns 23

2004 Steelers 24 at Cowboys 20

2004 Steelers 34 vs Patriots 20

2004 Steelers 27 vs Eagles 3
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dbsfgyd1
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11-02-2019, 07:18 PM

(11-02-2019, 12:19 PM))mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(11-02-2019, 09:55 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: Tim,

I would LOVE to see that stretch of games. Anybody out there have them?

I remember watching his rookie year thinking that he reminded me of Jim Kelly ( I was a fan of his since his USFL days with the Houston Gamblers) in his prime.

You're kidding, right? Pi_shocked  You know they're all on this site, don't you? 

2004 Steelers 34 vs Browns 23

2004 Steelers 24 at Cowboys 20

2004 Steelers 34 vs Patriots 20

2004 Steelers 27 vs Eagles 3
Nah, just getting old...need my creamed broccoli spoon fed too.

BTW, on the subject, that 2004 team top to bottom is a whole lot better than what the Steelers trotted out this year. Anybody waxing nostalgic over the Cowher years because Tomlin can’t coach a Super Bowl team, needs to look at these games then wonder, on a team that loaded didn’t win it all. Jeepers, these guys were really good.
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mcmillenandwife
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11-02-2019, 08:27 PM

(11-02-2019, 07:18 PM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote:
(11-02-2019, 12:19 PM))mcmillenandwife Wrote: You're kidding, right? Pi_shocked  You know they're all on this site, don't you? 

2004 Steelers 34 vs Browns 23

2004 Steelers 24 at Cowboys 20

2004 Steelers 34 vs Patriots 20

2004 Steelers 27 vs Eagles 3
Nah, just getting old...need my creamed broccoli spoon fed too.

BTW, on the subject, that 2004 team top to bottom is a whole lot better than what the Steelers trotted out this year. Anybody waxing nostalgic over the Cowher years because Tomlin can’t coach a Super Bowl team, needs to look at these games then wonder, on a team that loaded didn’t win it all. Jeepers, these guys were really good.

Agreed. 

The 2004 team -- when healthy and once Ben was added to the sauce -- was one of the great teams in Steeler history. Better than the '05, team, better than the '08 team (although the '08 defense was better). Easily the best Steelers team since the '70s. If Ben had been a 2nd year QB instead of a rookie, if Duce Staley had been able to stay healthy, and if the Patriots hadn't cheated (this was Spygate era and they clearly had our defensive signals dialed in after the ass-whipping we gave them earlier in the season)... ah, what could've been.

Had the playoffs started in week 8 when that team was absolutely peaking, nobody could've touched them. That team in that moment was one of the best in 25 years. Not just in terms of the Steelers, but it terms of the entire NFL. They... were... LOADED.

Put 2005 Ben on the 2004 team and they win it all. The rookie monkey got on Ben's back at the end of 2004. There's a reason a rookie QB has never won a Super Bowl. For one, Ben had never played a 16-game season and was exhausted, both mentally and physically. I also think the injury he sustained on the cheap shot by Suggs in the week 16 Baltimore game impacted him significantly. And if you recall for the Jets playoff game, he had a thumb injury that forced him to wear gloves in the game, and he was clearly not comfortable. The ball was sailing all over the place. I also think the pressure of the moment got to him. Regardless of the causes, that Jets playoff game remains one of the worst performances of Ben's entire career. The whole team was just "off." To this day, I can't watch that game without cringing the whole time. It's just plain ugly, top to bottom.

Plus, I had tickets in my hand for the AFCC the following week, which would have become worthless if the Steelers had lost to the Jets. Talk abut mentally and physically exhausted! I was an emotional wreck after that game. LOL.

BTW, Cowher DID win it all with that team, albeit a slightly downgraded version in 2005. I think he might've won additional Super Bowls with Ben had he stayed, but maybe not. Tomlin was a breath of fresh air when he came, and he gave the Steelers a winning edge for the first 5 or so years with the team. I hope he can find that edge again soon.

P.S. -- I just posted a video in another thread with highlights from every regular season start of Ben's rookie season. 



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