This offense sucks
Crash
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#1
09-11-2017, 10:15 AM

20 points or less on offense in 14 of their past 25 road games.  


Fire Haley. 

Promote Fichtner

Save Ben's career.  

It's time.
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Barney
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#2
09-11-2017, 10:29 AM

I think the major issue was that we didn't employ the screen enough. Had we just stuck with the screen game points would have followed.
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Crash
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#3
09-11-2017, 10:34 AM

Oh Lord.
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mcmillenandwife
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#4
09-11-2017, 12:01 PM

(09-11-2017, 10:29 AM)Barney Wrote: I think the major issue was that we didn't employ the screen enough.  Had we just stuck with the screen game points would have followed.

Laugh

Post of the day, right there.  Thumbsup
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Chucktownsteeler
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#5
09-11-2017, 01:24 PM

I believe the abundant amount of WR screens was Haley's misguided attempt to draw the safeties closer to the LOS.

Advantage: Greg Williams. Haley has no chance in this chess match.


As long as we have Haley, Boswell is our MVP! 

Turbo, Turbo, Pounce, Tilly - Tilly!
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Crash
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#6
09-11-2017, 04:43 PM

Apparently Mount Ben finally erupted.

First on Tomlin.

Then on Haley.

Then on basically everybody.

Until Landry Jones calmed him down.

Then they threw a TD to James.


Haley is completely outmatched as an OC. Clearly in way over his head.
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mcmillenandwife
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#7
09-11-2017, 09:41 PM

(09-11-2017, 04:43 PM)Crash Wrote: Apparently Mount Ben finally erupted.  

First on Tomlin.

Then on Haley.

Then on basically everybody.  

Until Landry Jones calmed him down.

Then they threw a TD to James.  


Haley is completely outmatched as an OC. Clearly in way over his head.


Wait, what? Ben erupted? I haven't read this anywhere. Are you saying this actually happened, or just floating a hypothetical scenario?
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sandfan
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#8
09-12-2017, 12:05 AM

I did not see any disruption on the screen. Maybe those at the game can fill us in.

The initial series of flanker screens seemed almost idiotic and certainly less than imaginative. The calls the rest of the game with one or two safeties playing 20 yards off the line seemed also questionable. With our OL one would think a running game could have been established with those safeties in that position. In addition there should have been some fairly significant gaps 10 yards or so in the middle of the field to exploit.

Ben will do better at home. He would also do better if given the reins. I'm not sure most of what Tomlin or Haley bring to the table is additive.
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Chucktownsteeler
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#9
09-12-2017, 03:02 AM

(09-12-2017, 12:05 AM)sandfan Wrote: I did not see any disruption on the screen.  Maybe those at the game can fill us in.  

The initial series of flanker screens seemed almost idiotic and certainly less than imaginative.  The calls the rest of the game with one or two safeties playing 20 yards off the line seemed also questionable.  With our OL one would think a running game could have been established with those safeties in that position.  In addition there should have been some fairly significant gaps 10 yards or so in the middle of the field to exploit.  

Ben will do better at home.  He would also do better if given the reins.  I'm not sure most of what Tomlin or Haley bring to the table is additive.

I was home but I saw a brief glimpse on TV before they cut away. I saw Laundry as well. Ben was extremely upset with MarCanibus Bryant on the long pass. I can't remember what quarter. Pert of it was the starters played very little in preseason (which I'm good with, hate to lose a start in a meeningless game). However, this team always seems to be unprepared and play down to their competitions level. With that being said this is the better Cleveland team I've seen in awhiile. In 2 or 3 years their QB will be Kizer and will have Jones or Dobbs. They have some nice young talent. 

Also, discipline is already an issue. Way TOO many penalties and I don't think the offense was in sync. Haley was competely outclassed by Greg Williams, I said it wearly in the game thread. He was at a gun fight and he brought a knife. He couldn't solve the "deep safeties" and we'll see that every week until he does. That's why he through so many WR screens. They don't work against press coverage. We should have had Bryant and DHB take the top off the defense and then throw underneath. Haley isn't that smart and he is a sot.


As long as we have Haley, Boswell is our MVP! 

Turbo, Turbo, Pounce, Tilly - Tilly!
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Crash
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#10
09-12-2017, 03:43 AM

(09-11-2017, 09:41 PM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(09-11-2017, 04:43 PM)Crash Wrote: Apparently Mount Ben finally erupted.  

First on Tomlin.

Then on Haley.

Then on basically everybody.  

Until Landry Jones calmed him down.

Then they threw a TD to James.  


Haley is completely outmatched as an OC. Clearly in way over his head.


Wait, what? Ben erupted? I haven't read this anywhere. Are you saying this actually happened, or just floating a hypothetical scenario?


DK reported it, and a buddy of mine who was at the game posted that he saw it also.
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mcmillenandwife
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#11
09-12-2017, 03:50 AM

(09-12-2017, 03:43 AM)Crash Wrote: DK reported it, and a buddy of mine who was at the game posted that he saw it also.


Forgive me, but... what's DK? 

I must say, if that's the case, I really like the fact that Ben was raising hell over what was going on. Glad he's stepping up against it.
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Cali-Steeler
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#12
09-12-2017, 04:13 AM

Ben's probably tired of screwing around with Haley's crap... No more finesse plays. screw the bubble screen... JUST THROW THE DAM BALLl!  

  Oh, and another thing - Disguise the run and the pass! Tired of pass plays with no Bell or Conner in the back field.
(This post was last modified: 09-12-2017, 04:14 AM by Cali-Steeler.)
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mcmillenandwife
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#13
09-12-2017, 04:40 AM

(09-12-2017, 04:13 AM)Cali-Steeler Wrote: Oh, and another thing - Disguise the run and the pass! Tired of pass plays with no Bell or Conner in the back field.

Dude, I know! I hate, hate, HATE the empty backfield crap! When you have one of the (supposedly) best running and receiving RB's in the league, why in the world would you not have him in backfield where he can be a threat to do both??? 

"HEY, DEFENSE! YEAH, YOU GUYS. HEY, DON'T WORRY ABOUT US RUNNING ON THIS PLAY. WE'RE STRICTLY GOING TO PASS, PLUS WE'RE NOT GOING TO LEAVE ANYONE BACK THERE TO PICK UP THE BLITZ, SO WE'RE FURTHER LIMITING OURSELVES TO SHORT, QUICK PASSES." 

F-ing stupidEyes
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Crash
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#14
09-12-2017, 05:02 AM

Arians was destroyed for using WR screens and empty sets.


A Pittsburgh guy is now OC, uses WR screens and empty sets MORE than Arians, his offense sucks, and yet he gets praised for it.


Makes me want to drink bleach.
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Cali-Steeler
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#15
09-12-2017, 09:28 AM

Ive said this all last year... Other teams must think we're stupid? You want the safety's to play up on the run. Leave Brown or Bryant one on one. Easy Math Haley

> Any time you have someone in the backfield it gets the defense thinking. Many options...
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dbsfgyd1
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#16
09-18-2017, 10:40 PM

(09-11-2017, 10:29 AM)Barney Wrote: I think the major issue was that we didn't employ the screen enough.  Had we just stuck with the screen game points would have followed.

Lol That's pretty funny.  Seriously, the screens in the Cleveland game did have a purpose. And it worked. Two things we have found out so far, if we throw bubble screens, AND run Bryant fly patterns all day, AB is going bust out. If Bryant runs fly patterns all day with no bubble screens AND we actually throw him the ball, Bryant is going to put up huge numbers, and AB is still going to put up great numbers.
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dbsfgyd1
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#17
09-18-2017, 10:55 PM

Just saying guys, we are 2-0. Come December, we aren't going to give a rip as to what happened in these two games other than they were wins.

Before we run every player and coach out of town, it was fairly obvious there was tremendous improvement between week one and week two that showed up Sunday. That was not exactly lousy Viking defense that just got beat.

The O just about has their counter trap game going, we got the deep ball functioning, the only one I'm seeing that stinking it up at the moment, is Big Al. You know, there were years in the dynasty era when it took them over a month to get the trap offense clicking. And that was the only offense they had.

The best advice, relax, chill out and enjoy the season. These guys aren't even close to what you are going to be seeing by year end.
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mcmillenandwife
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#18
09-19-2017, 12:57 AM

(09-18-2017, 10:55 PM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: ...the only one I'm seeing that stinking it up at the moment, is Big Al...


Agreed, Villanueva has definitely been pretty disappointing so far. He didn't play well vs. Cleveland and he was getting beaten like a drum vs. Minnesota. I noticed they pulled him at some point in the 2nd half but I'm not sure if he got dinged or if they just decided to make a change.
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dbsfgyd1
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#19
09-19-2017, 01:17 AM

(09-19-2017, 12:57 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(09-18-2017, 10:55 PM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: ...the only one I'm seeing that stinking it up at the moment, is Big Al...


Agreed, Villanueva has definitely been pretty disappointing so far. He didn't play well vs. Cleveland and he was getting beaten like a drum vs. Minnesota. I noticed they pulled him at some point in the 2nd half but I'm not sure if he got dinged or if they just decided to make a change.

Heat related illness. On another site someone posted he was ill and it may have contributed to dehydration.
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Crash
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#20
09-19-2017, 01:18 AM

(09-18-2017, 10:55 PM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: Just saying guys, we are 2-0. Come December, we aren't going to give a rip as to what happened in these two games other than they were wins.

Before we run every player and coach out of town, it was fairly obvious there was tremendous improvement between week one and week two that showed up Sunday. That was not exactly lousy Viking defense that just got beat.

The O just about has their counter trap game going, we got the deep ball functioning, the only one I'm seeing that stinking it up at the moment, is Big Al. You know,  there were years in the dynasty era when it took them over a month to get the trap offense clicking. And that was the only offense they had.

The best advice, relax, chill out and enjoy the season. These guys aren't even close to what you are going to be seeing by year end.

On offense?  This is basically who we are every week.  Constant shuffling, tipping plays on formations, etc.

Been like this for over 5 years.  

20 points or less on offense in 15 of their past 24 road games.  

Under 20 points in five of six playoff games with Haley.

Ben throws those 12 TD's in two weeks in 2014?  In their next 16 games they went 20 points or less on offense 11 times.  

When is enough enough?  When does Art II finally admit that hiring his buddy didn't work?
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dbsfgyd1
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#21
09-19-2017, 01:50 AM

RE: With apologies to Forest Gump,

an NFL game/Season "is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you are going to get"

As I am sure you realize football has three concentrated areas, Offense, Defense, and Special Teams. They all function together and have equal import on the outcome of the game. Discount one over the others, or ripping one more than the others is an overly simplistic point of view. Example? Take a look at out average offensive starting point over the last 5 years. It sucks,  mainly because of piss poor special teams play, and our patented bend but don't break defense system.

How many drives did you see last season that started inside the 20? It's legend. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize a team will score more often when a drive starts at the 40 than the 15. It also is not a stretch understanding there are plays you are not going to run on your 15 that you would at the 40.

My point is, Hayley may not be the best in class. That I will agree with,  but I've seen a lot worse, and a fair percentage are still employed in NFL.
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Crash
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#22
09-19-2017, 03:07 AM

Didn't matter for Arians. The Steelers were 30th in the NFL in starting field position in 2011, couldn't force turnovers on defense, and Arians was still blamed for lack of points.

The fundamental structure of Haley's offensive desires does not mesh with what is best for this football team. It's been going on six years of square peg, round hole offense because he vales useless fullbacks and 4th team tight ends instead of speed.

Brown's had it, Ben's had it, and now it appears that Tomlin's had it.
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Crash
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#23
09-19-2017, 03:34 AM

Eli Rogers only on the field for 50% of the snaps.

That's dumb.
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dbsfgyd1
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#24
10-04-2017, 11:32 PM

(09-19-2017, 03:34 AM)Crash Wrote: Eli Rogers only on the field for 50% of the snaps.  

That's dumb.

Uh, have you been watching Juju lately? It would be dumb if he was the one on the bench. Rogers has a nasty habit of being non productive for large periods of the game, and can’t block worth squat.  Add to that a dropped punt, and he’s on the bench. 

Speaking of Juju, did you happen to notice his block on Bell’s TD Sunday? Absolutely crushed the Ravens DE. Pancake. 

Look, I get your Haley bias, but if you are expecting the greatest show on turf redux, it ain’t happening regardless of who the OC is. It doesn’t work in the winter. I’ll agree it does look fun in  a dome, or in California, but in Cleveland, Cincinnati, and the Burgh in December, not so much. You’d better be able to run the ball, and these first few weeks of the season have been dedicated to making sure we can.
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Crash
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#25
10-05-2017, 01:56 AM

Now it's Bryant's turn.

He was off the field for 19 snaps in Chicago.

He was off the field for 28 snaps last week.

This is your alleged #2 WR.

Don't give me that weather crap. It works when the rotating stops, regardless of weather.

The ONLY time Ben looked comfortable last week?

End of the first half. I think they subbed 1 time the entire drive.

Touchdown.

This has been going on since Haley got here.

I made a joke on Twitter Sunday before the game about the two year Anniversary of Villanueva running a pass pattern against the Ravens.

Guess what? Haley had the wrong people in the game for the play he called Sunday, so BJ Finney, another 330 pound tackle had to run a deep pass pattern.

Defenses don't stop Haley's offense.

Haley himself, stops Haley's offense.
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dbsfgyd1
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#26
10-05-2017, 03:13 AM

(10-05-2017, 01:56 AM)Crash Wrote: Now it's Bryant's turn.  

He was off the field for 19 snaps in Chicago.

He was off the field for 28 snaps last week.  

This is your alleged #2 WR.  

Don't give me that weather crap.  It works when the rotating stops, regardless of weather.  

The ONLY time Ben looked comfortable last week?

End of the first half.  I think they subbed 1 time the entire drive.

Touchdown.  

This has been going on since Haley got here.  

I made a joke on Twitter Sunday before the game about the two year Anniversary of Villanueva running a pass pattern against the Ravens.  

Guess what?  Haley had the wrong people in the game for the play he called Sunday, so BJ Finney, another 330 pound tackle had to run a deep pass pattern.

Defenses don't stop Haley's offense.

Haley himself, stops Haley's offense.

It’s a long season. They are working on the running game. Crash, as you should know, they don’t have unlimited time to work on things during the week. What you see working really well is what they practice. From the looks of it, the priority practice snaps are defense, followed by the running game, passing game, punt coverage return coverage, punt return, kickoff return, in that order. When you only have 9 hours a week or less in pads, 

As for rotation, it’s up to the players to know when they are supposed  to be on the field, not the OC. With Gilbert out, Hubbard was playing T and Finney  playing TE, a position he more than likely hadn’t played since pee wee league days. If he get’s out there at the wrong time, they sure as heck are not going to call a time out to rectify, especially when timeouts  could be at a premium.

Further in regard to rotation, it’s very normal at the beginning of the season. 1974, Blier finally landed the starting role at about week 6, and things turned out considering running back was not the only thing they rotated. For instance for the record, Center and WR were rotated on a per series basis ( which is really looney) and we had 3 different starting QBs. Guards were also rotated between Clack, Mullins, and Davis. It is unquestionable much worse than anything that is going on now. 

I haven’t seen much out of Bryant to warrant the #2 moniker at this point in his recovery. We hope he would be that guy, but right now, he hasn’t been playing like it...yet. When he does, look for that snap count to increase. 

BTW, Arians hadn’t done squat until he got in a dome. just sayin’.

As for Haley, you need to take of the mud colored glasses where he is concerned. He may not be all that, but he isn’t as bad as you say. Not even close.
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Crash
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#27
10-05-2017, 03:50 AM

Quote:BTW, Arians hadn’t done squat until he got in a dome. just sayin’.

Ben set team records with 32 TD passes (In only 404 attempts) in 2007.

Ben's highest QB rating ever is under Arians.

In 2009? Ben had 4000+ yards, a 1200 yard rusher, two 1000 yard receivers, a 700+ yard #3 WR, and a career for Heath Miller.

First time in team history.

In between those two seasons? They won the Super Bowl.

2010? Ben threw 17 TD's and only 4 picks in the 2010 regular season. They win the AFC.

2011? Ben was the best QB in the AFC before he hurt his ankle.

Then Arians was fired.

Quote:As for Haley, you need to take of the mud colored glasses where he is concerned. He may not be all that, but he isn’t as bad as you say. Not even close.

What's Haley's claim to fame?

His offense was at it's best in 2012.

Since?

He got demoted in 2013 after the Bills game.

2014? They scored 20 or less on offense in three of their first six games. Then 12 TD's in 2 weeks, then 20 or less in 6 of their final 8 game.

2015 they opened with 20 or less in 5 of their first 8. So in a 16 game stretch over two seasons they hit 20 or less on offense in 11 of 16 games.

20 or less in 16 of their past 26 road games.

Under 20 points in 5 of 6 playoff games.

No bye weeks.

No AFC titles.

No rings.

21 new HC jobs since the start of the 2015 season.

Chubbs Peterson can't get an interview, much less an offer.

You're right, he's a goddamn genius.
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dbsfgyd1
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#28
10-05-2017, 09:51 AM

(10-05-2017, 03:50 AM)Crash Wrote:
Quote:BTW, Arians hadn’t done squat until he got in a dome. just sayin’.

Ben set team records with 32 TD passes (In only 404 attempts) in 2007.  

Ben's highest QB rating ever is under Arians.  

In 2009?  Ben had 4000+ yards, a 1200 yard rusher, two 1000 yard receivers, a 700+ yard #3 WR, and a career for Heath Miller.  

First time in team history.  

In between those two seasons?  They won the Super Bowl.  

2010?  Ben threw 17 TD's and only 4 picks in the 2010 regular season.  They win the AFC.  

2011?  Ben was the best QB in the AFC before he hurt his ankle.  

Then Arians was fired.

Quote:As for Haley, you need to take of the mud colored glasses where he is concerned. He may not be all that, but he isn’t as bad as you say. Not even close.

What's Haley's claim to fame?  

His offense was at it's best in 2012.  

Since?

He got demoted in 2013 after the Bills game.

2014?  They scored 20 or less on offense in three of their first six games.  Then 12 TD's in 2 weeks, then 20 or less in 6 of their final 8 game.  

2015 they opened with 20 or less in 5 of their first 8.  So in a 16 game stretch over two seasons they hit 20 or less on offense in 11 of 16 games.  

20 or less in 16 of their past 26 road games.  

Under 20 points in 5 of 6 playoff games.  

No bye weeks.  

No AFC titles.  

No rings.

21 new HC jobs since the start of the 2015 season.  

Chubbs Peterson can't get an interview, much less an offer.  

You're right, he's a goddamn genius.
2008 Super Bowl, almost beat the best defense in football with one WR that was worth a crap, and a washed up QB. Not his fault the Cards D got a case of the yips. Who is Chubbs Peterson?
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bksteeler
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#29
10-05-2017, 12:55 PM

(10-05-2017, 09:51 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote:
(10-05-2017, 03:50 AM)Crash Wrote:
Quote:BTW, Arians hadn’t done squat until he got in a dome. just sayin’.

Ben set team records with 32 TD passes (In only 404 attempts) in 2007.  

Ben's highest QB rating ever is under Arians.  

In 2009?  Ben had 4000+ yards, a 1200 yard rusher, two 1000 yard receivers, a 700+ yard #3 WR, and a career for Heath Miller.  

First time in team history.  

In between those two seasons?  They won the Super Bowl.  

2010?  Ben threw 17 TD's and only 4 picks in the 2010 regular season.  They win the AFC.  

2011?  Ben was the best QB in the AFC before he hurt his ankle.  

Then Arians was fired.

Quote:As for Haley, you need to take of the mud colored glasses where he is concerned. He may not be all that, but he isn’t as bad as you say. Not even close.

What's Haley's claim to fame?  

His offense was at it's best in 2012.  

Since?

He got demoted in 2013 after the Bills game.

2014?  They scored 20 or less on offense in three of their first six games.  Then 12 TD's in 2 weeks, then 20 or less in 6 of their final 8 game.  

2015 they opened with 20 or less in 5 of their first 8.  So in a 16 game stretch over two seasons they hit 20 or less on offense in 11 of 16 games.  

20 or less in 16 of their past 26 road games.  

Under 20 points in 5 of 6 playoff games.  

No bye weeks.  

No AFC titles.  

No rings.

21 new HC jobs since the start of the 2015 season.  

Chubbs Peterson can't get an interview, much less an offer.  

You're right, he's a goddamn genius.
2008 Super Bowl, almost beat the best defense in football with one WR that was worth a crap, and a washed up QB. Not his fault the Cards D got a case of the yips. Who is Chubbs Peterson?
I'm not saying that Haley is an offensive genius, but let's not forget that Arians had all the problems of Haley has (red-zone offense, weird play-calling) only worse. And he let Ben get sacked 50 times a year because "If I try to change his style (that is, make him get the ball out quicker), I'll ruin him as a quarterback like I did one of my protogees way back when."

I think it's safe to say that Ben's career hasn't been utterly ruined by getting rid of the ball quicker. 

And in case you've forgotten, here are Arians' offensive scoring production 393, 347, 368, 375, 323, 336, for an average of 357. For Haley, 379, 436, 423, 399, average of 409. This, despite the fact that Haley had worse defenses than Arians did, which means that he had less opportunity to do damage. I don't know about you, but I'll take Haley any day over Arians.
(This post was last modified: 10-05-2017, 12:59 PM by bksteeler.)
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Crash
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#30
10-05-2017, 01:38 PM

Quote:2008 Super Bowl, almost beat the best defense in football with one WR that was worth a crap, and a washed up QB.

One minor detail.  It was Whiz's system.  Not Haley's  The ONLY difference between 2007 and 2008 in Arizona was that Haley became the play-caller in 2008 (Whiz called the plays for most of 2007) full time.  

Boldin wasn't a bum.  Steve Breaston was a solid #3 until injuries ruined his career.  

But it was the same offense Whiz installed in 2007, which featured three 1000 yard receivers, and little subbing.  

Warner threw 55 passes all season with 2+ TE on the field in 2008.  

Ben will throw at least 120 with 2+  TE on the field because we are using HALEY'S Kansas City playbook.  

Quote:Who is Chubbs Peterson?

A fictitious golf coach in the movie Happy Gilmore played by Carl Weathers.  Haley was a college golfer, and then a part time women's college golf coach before his Daddy got him in the NFL's door.
(This post was last modified: 10-05-2017, 01:38 PM by Crash.)
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