This offense sucks
bksteeler
All Pro Veteran
****

Posts: 300
Joined: Apr 2017
#31
10-05-2017, 03:03 PM

More fun facts just to remind me that I'm glad Arians is gone.

Scoring futility facts:

2007
Under 20 -- 4 times. Three of those four times they were under 15, once they were 10 or under.

2008
Under 20 -- 6 times. All six times, they scored less than 15, and twice scored 10 or under.


2009
Under 20 -- 5 times. Four of those five times, they were under 15, and once scored 10 or under.

2010
Under 20 -- 7 times!!! Three of those times they were under 15, and once scored 10 or under.

2011
Under 20 -- 7 times again!!! Six of those 7 times they were under 15, and three times 10 or under.

2012
Under 20 -- 6 times under 20 (I guess he got tired of 7). Three of those times under 15, and twice with 10 or under.

So in 6 years under Arians, 35 times under 20 (six times a year) with 25 of those being under 15 (4 times a year), and ten times with 10 or under.

Under Haley

2013
Under 20 -- 5 times, with two coming under 15, and two with 10 or less.
2014
Under 20 -- 4 times, with 3 coming under 15, and two with 10 or less.

2015
Under 20 -- 4 times, with 3 under 15, and once with ten or less.

2016
Under 20 -- 4 times, twice under 15, and once 10 or less.

So in four years under Haley
Under 20 -- 17 times (4 times a year), with ten of those games being under 15 (2-3 times a year), and 6 times with 10 or less.


Now in the playoffs, Haley has fared much worse.

Scoring offense under Arians (not including special teams/defensive scores) -- 189 in 8 games for a 23.6 average.

Scoring offense under Haley (not including special teams/defensive scores) -- 116 in 6 games for a 19.3 average, largely skewed by the ONE time the Steelers have actually scored over 20 in a playoff game. (30 points against Miami). Clearly unacceptable and knocks Haley from any consideration as some kind of offensive genius.

But several things to consider: ALL of Arians' playoff games were at home, except the Super Bowls. Only 2 of the six playoff games under Haley were at home.

Second, Haley was playing with Josh Harris and Toussaint in 2014, and Todman and Toussaint in 2015, and were without A.B. in the second game that year. Then last year, they were without Bell for the Patriots game.

So far as I can remember, the most serious injury that the Steelers faced in the playoffs in Arians' time was when Mendenhall got injured in 2011, but Redman was a decent backup that year. He had a better year running than DeAngelo in 2016, and in case anyone forgot, finished with 121 yards in 17 carries in the loss against Denver.

Again, I'm not saying that Haley is the best OC we've ever had. But to me, he is much preferable to Arians.
Reply
mcmillenandwife
Administrator
*******

Posts: 18,071
Joined: Jan 1970
#32
10-05-2017, 08:28 PM

(10-05-2017, 03:03 PM)bksteeler Wrote: Again, I'm not saying that Haley is the best OC we've ever had. But to me, he is much preferable to Arians.


That's pretty much where I come down on it. The best I can say about Haley is that I've generally found him to be slightly preferable to Arians.

But not so much THIS year. Haley has been pretty bad, and so has the offense with a few individual exceptions. It's a long season; I'm okay with some growing pains as long as we GROW and get better. I look at the Chiefs, and while they're 4-0 and really enjoying themselves right now, I think they're peaking too soon. Playing your best game in September doesn't win Super Bowls. 

I liked what I saw from Bell last week. I liked the way the defense bounced back after the debacle in Chicago. But I'm far from pleased with the offense. Martavis Bryant continues to be a major disappointment. And Ben is about as far from being in a groove as I've seen since 2008. The numbers weren't necessarily there in 2008, but the clutch play-making ability was there. You didn't really worry about the numbers because Ben was doing all these great things that don't show up on paper.

But Ben hasn't been "clutch" so far this year. Not even close. The intangibles that have made him so great in the past just haven't been there so far this season. 

And honestly, I'm still struggling a bit with the National Anthem 'dis from the Bears game. I'm watching the Steelers with a lot of skepticism right now. The AB temper tantrum bothers me, too. 

The season is young. We'll see. One thing is for sure... there's a TON of room for improvement. Thankfully, this team seems to have the talent to reach a higher potential. They just need to get on the same page and go get it.
Reply
dbsfgyd1
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 15,427
Joined: Apr 2017
#33
10-06-2017, 12:33 AM

(10-05-2017, 08:28 PM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(10-05-2017, 03:03 PM)bksteeler Wrote: Again, I'm not saying that Haley is the best OC we've ever had. But to me, he is much preferable to Arians.


That's pretty much where I come down on it. The best I can say about Haley is that I've generally found him to be slightly preferable to Arians.

But not so much THIS year. Haley has been pretty bad, and so has the offense with a few individual exceptions. It's a long season; I'm okay with some growing pains as long as we GROW and get better. I look at the Chiefs, and while they're 4-0 and really enjoying themselves right now, I think they're peaking too soon. Playing your best game in September doesn't win Super Bowls. 

I liked what I saw from Bell last week. I liked the way the defense bounced back after the debacle in Chicago. But I'm far from pleased with the offense. Martavis Bryant continues to be a major disappointment. And Ben is about as far from being in a groove as I've seen since 2008. The numbers weren't necessarily there in 2008, but the clutch play-making ability was there. You didn't really worry about the numbers because Ben was doing all these great things that don't show up on paper.

But Ben hasn't been "clutch" so far this year. Not even close. The intangibles that have made him so great in the past just haven't been there so far this season. 

And honestly, I'm still struggling a bit with the National Anthem 'dis from the Bears game. I'm watching the Steelers with a lot of skepticism right now. The AB temper tantrum bothers me, too. 

The season is young. We'll see. One thing is for sure... there's a TON of room for improvement. Thankfully, this team seems to have the talent to reach a higher potential. They just need to get on the same page and go get it.
 I agree with this assessment, pretty much spot on. Especially the Ben comment. I’m firmly of an opinion is he had way too little work in the preseason, Bell not being there, Bryant being not quite what we remember, and Rogers not being all that, are contributing factors.

As you know, I’m no stats geek typically for the most part, since they usually manipulated by fans to the enth degree to make invalid points. IMO, there is a game within the game that stat geeks miss. Things like garbage time, field position, injuries known or unknown, weather, coaching decisions,  guys just having a bad day don’t show up as disclaimers on stat sheets. 

I am really intrigued with this team, as it is really young with a lot of high level talent. It’s also really deep. From a coaching perspective, goal number one is finding out who is the best option for each position, and how to make them as productive as possible. Frankly, they aren’t there yet. This is not like the dynasty teams where for 6 years you knew with the exception of injuries, who was going to be on the field, leaving little need to adjust plays and game plans on a game/year to year basis.

We have some tough games coming up. There are going to be hard lessons learned that will  serve the team in good stead going forward. There is no doubt in my mind by year end, assuming health holds up, and Ben, Bell, and Brown don’t miss significant time, this will be the best team in the league.

Because of that, as torqued as I am over the the Anthem issue, the media blowing everything out of proportion, the rampant negativity in Steeler Nation concerning the best team we’ve fielded in almost 10 years, holding my nose, I’m still going to be tuning in.
Reply
Crash
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 869
Joined: May 2017
#34
10-06-2017, 02:27 AM

Quote:And in case you've forgotten, here are Arians' offensive scoring production 393, 347, 368, 375, 323, 336, for an average of 357. For Haley, 379, 436, 423, 399, average of 409. This, despite the fact that Haley had worse defenses than Arians did, which means that he had less opportunity to do damage. I don't know about you, but I'll take Haley any day over Arians.

Stats without context.  

I don't care when Ben throws for garbage time yards, and garbage time TD's in blowout losses with Haley. 

You are also adding TOTAL points, including offense and defensive points, to Haley's total.  

Arians also gets penalized for winning more, they'd throw early (Whiz did too), get leads, and then they'd start milking the clock. Hell they stopped throwing vs. the Ravens after Ben thew 5 TD's in the first half in 2007.  At times they also took Ben out of the game in the 4th quarter and put the backup in to hand off.  

Haley does the exact opposite, to go along with his constant rotations which disrupt his own offense.  

You also can't score when your defense doesn't force turnovers.  In 2009 and 2011 the Steelers were one of the worst teams in the league in forcing turnovers, when the majority of your points come from going 75-80 yards almost every drive?  Their simply isn't enough time to score a lot.  The Steelers were 30th in the NFL in 2011 in starting field position, despite having a Pro Bowl punt returner, AND one of the best offenses in the league on 3rd down.  

Arians offense also protected the defense by keeping them off the field.  You can't give up yards or points on defense, when you're on the sidelines drinking Gatorade.  

Despite that?  From 2007-until week 5 of the 2012 season (Only five games into Haley's era) the Steelers defense blew 20 fourth quarter leads.

Tied for second in the NFL.  

That doesn't even count, the three blown 4th quarter leads in the first six games of 2005.  Ben saved LeBeau twice, he only saves him once?  They don't make the playoffs that season.

This whole "civil war" between the offense and defense among the fan base started, because people judged LeBeau's defense, the same way they judged LeBeau the PERSON.  

What's ironic?  Is I said LeBeau was on borrowed time BEFORE Haley ever coached a game here.  

Don't believe me?  Click the attachment below, notice the date.  

LeBeau's defense then blows 13 fourth quarter leads in their first 38 games with Haley on the payroll, and only then, did LeBeau start getting the heat because his scapegoat (Arians) was gone.  

As predicted.   

His system stinks.  Coupled with the fact that Haley's too preoccupied with getting all the credit?  Is why they haven't won anything with him on the payroll.  

He should have been fired after 2013 when he was "demoted" by Tomlin, but Art II won't fire him (Tomlin can't) because that admits the mistake in hiring him.  

People like Haley for two reasons, 1. He's not Arians, and two, he tries to run the ball more.  And that's it.  His having Ben line up at WR where any DB can hit him?  Doesn't matter.  Taking Antonio Brown off the field in Baltimore in 2013 on the biggest play (AFTER Bell was hurt) of their season?  Who cares.  Having 330 pound offensive linemen running pass patterns?  BFD.  James Harrison at fullback in the redzone running pass patterns with AB and Bryant on the sidelines?  That's OK.  He's not Arians so any dimwitted shit he does is fine.  LOL  

But when you compare the first 8 seasons of Ben's career with Whiz/Arians to the 5+ years of Haley from a FOOTBALL standpoint?  It's not even close which Ben was the better Ben.  

And it's not from 2012-2017.  

Haley's lived off those 12 TD's in two weeks in 2014 for over two years now.  

When does the free pass run out?

The game on Christmas should have told EVERYONE, where the problem lies on offense.  

And it's not #7.


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
   
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2017, 04:47 AM by Crash.)
Reply
Crash
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 869
Joined: May 2017
#35
10-06-2017, 02:32 AM

Quote:2012

Under 20 -- 6 times under 20 (I guess he got tired of 7). Three of those times under 15, and twice with 10 or under.

That was Haley's first year.

Arians was in Indy, where he won the first of his two Coach of the Year honors since he was fired in Pittsburgh.

Haley can't even win the new assistant coach of the year award.

Look at it like this, Arians has won Coach of the Year TWICE since he left.

Haley, has gotten ONE head coaching INTERVIEW, in the same time frame. LOL
Reply
Crash
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 869
Joined: May 2017
#36
10-06-2017, 02:35 AM

Quote:But Ben hasn't been "clutch" so far this year. Not even close. The intangibles that have made him so great in the past just haven't been there so far this season.

You mean the intangibles that Haley and Art II took away from him when he was told to "tweak his game" and then they hired a golfer to run the offense.

The ONLY time, that Ben looks "clutch" is when Haley has no choice but to scrap his constant subbing at the end of halves because they are fighting the clock.
Reply
Crash
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 869
Joined: May 2017
#37
10-06-2017, 02:46 AM

Quote:And Ben is about as far from being in a groove as I've seen since 2008

Ben was in a groove to start that season.  

9 TD passes, 3 picks.  

Then he had the worst three game stretch of his career.  1 TD, 8 picks.  

Then to close that season out he finished with 10 TD passes, 4 picks.  

This, despite injuries to Parker, Mendenhall, Miller for a few games, lost long time starters Kendall Simmons and Marvel Smith to in season injuries for most of the year, a new starting LG when Faneca left, and his 3rd different starting center in three years.  

Haley's dumbed down system is the equivalent of having Seabiscuit or American Pharoah pulling a farmer's plow.
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2017, 02:57 AM by Crash.)
Reply
dbsfgyd1
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 15,427
Joined: Apr 2017
#38
10-06-2017, 09:28 PM

(10-06-2017, 02:32 AM)Crash Wrote:
Quote:2012

Under 20 -- 6 times under 20 (I guess he got tired of 7). Three of those times under 15, and twice with 10 or under.

That was Haley's first year.  

Arians was in Indy, where he won the first of his two Coach of the Year honors since he was fired in Pittsburgh.  

Haley can't even win the new assistant coach of the year award.  

Look at it like this, Arians has won Coach of the Year TWICE since he left.  

Haley, has gotten ONE head coaching INTERVIEW, in the same time frame.  LOL

RE: Arians

All honors AFTER he left, and in a dome. Whoopty do! His work here sucked, with the exception of getting his QB killed. He does manage to do that. Really well I might add. With 4 different teams now.

Seriously, if you love stats and fantasy football, the guy is a genious. If you want an OC
 To take over and control a a game, not so much. I will say the guy can churn stats with the best of them, but they are highly misleading. Haley may not be the greatest, but at least it’s honest not trying to post stats for stats sake.
Reply
mcmillenandwife
Administrator
*******

Posts: 18,071
Joined: Jan 1970
#39
10-06-2017, 10:36 PM

Regarding Haley vs. Arians, one of the MAIN things Haley was asked to do was reduce the number of sacks Ben was taking. To Dave's point, Arians gets QB's killed
  • Sacks under Arians: 215 / 5 years = average of 43 sacks per season (2007 - 2011)
  • Sacks under Haley: 142 / 5 years = average of 28 sacks per season (2012 - 2016)
This has happened even though Ben has is throwing the ball significantly more under Haley than he did under Arians (338 more times over 5 years).

I'm not thrilled with Haley, but he has succeeded at limiting the hits on Ben. I submit that had Arians stayed, Ben's career would've been over by now because no one can take that kind of a sustained beating.
Reply
Krunch
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 3,490
Joined: Apr 2017
#40
10-07-2017, 12:47 AM

Arian's Quarterbacks over his career:  Farve, Ben, Luck, Palmer.  I say riding the coat tails.  Did the coach make the Quarterback or the Quarterback make the Coach?

His breakout year in Indianapolis, his team was no doubt hyper-motivated to play lights out for their cancer-stricken coach.

I actually think he is is a very good Head Coach and pretty much sucks as an OC.  If  you build the right supporting cast and allow your coordinators to flourish, you will succeed and he has in Arizona.  Mike "Softy" Tomlin carried him on his staff for one maybe two seasons too many and I for one believe it was the Front Office and not Tomlin who had to make the tough call to cut him loose.

Where I see Haley's advantage over Arian's is how he can structure things to the talent available at any given moment.  He has also built schemes to protect Ben over a sustained periodof time.  Arian's, "In Ben We Trust" scheme worked great when Ben was Ben, highly elusive and shrewd on the fly - Don't know how many times he bailed out Arian's meatball plays.  Sending FWP into gigantic Offensive Lineman over and over with no blocking FB was aweful to witness.  Endless Bubble Screens to old and never fast Hines Ward always failed, yet over and over the play was called.

Haven't really seen the Steelers this year so have to rely on what is said here about Haley's erratic play calling so far.


"Just give me a six-pack and 30 minutes to rest and lets go out and play 'em again!"  
  - Jack Lambert
Reply
mcmillenandwife
Administrator
*******

Posts: 18,071
Joined: Jan 1970
#41
10-07-2017, 02:02 AM

(10-07-2017, 12:47 AM)Krunch Wrote: ...Don't know how many times he bailed out Arian's meatball plays...

Laugh
Reply
Crash
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 869
Joined: May 2017
#42
10-07-2017, 02:20 AM

Quote:Sacks under Arians: 215 / 5 years = average of 43 sacks per season (2007 - 2011)
Sacks under Haley: 142 / 5 years = average of 28 sacks per season (2012 - 2016)

Ben was "sacked" ONCE last week.  

But he took a BEATING in that game.  

Quote:Where I see Haley's advantage over Arian's is how he can structure things to the talent available at any given moment.

When?  When he has offensive linemen running pass patterns?  When he takes the best WR in football off the field so an un-drafted scrub fullback can be the #1 target on the biggest 3rd down of that season?

If that's Arians he gets destroyed.  

Why is Toddy getting a free pass?  

Structure is the last thing Haley has ever had in his offense.  He runs his offense just like he runs his life off the field, complete chaos with no structure at all.  

Quote:Sending FWP into gigantic Offensive Lineman over and over with no blocking FB was aweful to witness.

NO, that's what Haley does now with Bell.  Last regular season LeVeon Bell only had 36 rushes with someone in the backfield with him.  And they all weren't Nix either, Nix barely played last season when the offense was playing well.  The MORE he played, the worse the offense actually looked.

Willie actually led the NFL in rushing under Arians until he broke his ankle.  

Quote:Endless Bubble Screens to old and never fast Hines Ward always failed, yet over and over the play was called.

1. That play was called to extend Ward's catch streak, which Hines said was very important to him, and Arians obliged.  

2. Haley actually uses them MORE than Arians did, but where as BA was cursed for using them, now that a Yinzer runs the offense it's now been labeled "Getting the ball out of Ben's hands faster".  LOL  

The same exact play. But two different terms for them.  

All because of where Haley grew up.  

Quote:Mike "Softy" Tomlin carried him on his staff for one maybe two seasons too many and I for one believe it was the Front Office and not Tomlin who had to make the tough call to cut him loose.

So when did you want him fired?  After they won the Super Bowl?  When they won the AFC in 2010?  

But yet you want Haley to remain even though they've won less?  Makes no sense.  

Quote:I actually think he is is a very good Head Coach and pretty much sucks as an OC.

He's still the play-caller in Arizona, just like in Pittsburgh.  Only difference is his title and his pay are different.  

Quote:Haven't really seen the Steelers this year so have to rely on what is said here about Haley's erratic play calling so far.

Nothing has changed since 2014.  Haley still wastes too many plays running his high school bullshit.  Last week it was BJ Finney running a pass pattern because Haley had the wrong people on the field for the play he called.  

Again.  

Quote:I'm not thrilled with Haley, but he has succeeded at limiting the hits on Ben. I submit that had Arians stayed, Ben's career would've been over by now because no one can take that kind of a sustained beating.

And IMO had Arians stayed they would have been to at least one more Super Bowl.  

You know, what USED to matter to this fan base before Todd Haley showed up?  

Ben and every Steelers QB with the exception of Charlie Batch has been KO'd playing in this alleged "QB safer" offense.  

And again, Haley is still getting a free pass.  

Quote:He has also built schemes to protect Ben over a sustained periodof time.

Yeah, running the ball more, and WR screens.  

And Ben has STILL missed more games to injury playing for Haley, than he did for Arians.  

I'm sure that's Arians fault too though.  It can never be Haley's.

Quote:Seriously, if you love stats and fantasy football, the guy is a genious.

Actually that's Haley.  Ben has thrown for more garbage time yards and TD's in 5+ years with Haley, than he did in his first 8 years without him.  

Only in Yinzerburgh do fans value a complete incompetent like Todd Haley, over a HOF talent like Ben.   

Would have been better off if they just parted ways after Millegeville, than subject Ben to six years of Todd Haley's garbage offense.  

Art II did what DA Bright couldn't:  He killed Ben's career.   
(This post was last modified: 10-07-2017, 04:49 AM by Crash.)
Reply
Krunch
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 3,490
Joined: Apr 2017
#43
10-08-2017, 01:20 AM

"Quote:
Sending FWP into gigantic Offensive Lineman over and over with no blocking FB was aweful to witness.

NO, that's what Haley does now with Bell.  Last regular season LeVeon Bell only had 36 rushes with someone in the backfield with him.  And they all weren't Nix either, Nix barely played last season when the offense was playing well.  The MORE he played, the worse the offense actually looked.

Willie actually led the NFL in rushing under Arians until he broke his ankle.

Re: bubble Screen:

2. Haley actually uses them MORE than Arians did, but where as BA was cursed for using them, now that a Yinzer runs the offense it's now been labeled "Getting the ball out of Ben's hands faster".  LOL  

The same exact play. But two different terms for them.  

Crash - We clearly watched games under Arian's from a completly different angle.  This board was chock full of angst over FWP being bounced around like a Bumper Pool Ball when Arian's decried there is no Fullback in my offense.  Even battering ram Bettis had a lead blocker for many calls that were called for him.  FWP is no Bell.  FWP needed obvious help on the inside and his coach denied it to him.

Re: Haley's use of quick toss / screens - throwing to quick, nimble receivers is a whole lot different than 4-5 tmes a game to Hines Ward in the dead-stop standing position a foot from the sideline.  Rapid Accleration was not exactly his callng card.  There were much quicker receivers who were never utilized with these plays.

Apparenly Arian's sacrificing team success for Ward's stats was a good thing.  Thanks for sharing that .  I had no idea.


"Just give me a six-pack and 30 minutes to rest and lets go out and play 'em again!"  
  - Jack Lambert
(This post was last modified: 10-08-2017, 01:28 AM by Krunch.)
Reply
Crash
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 869
Joined: May 2017
#44
10-08-2017, 02:08 AM

You're right, the Steelers sucked under Arians.

They had no success at all.

Two AFC titles, a Super Bowl title. Didn't mean shit.

I'd rather the Steelers go three full seasons without a playoff win again under Haley.

A perfect way to end Ben's now irrelevant career.

Silly me.
Reply
Crash
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 869
Joined: May 2017
#45
10-08-2017, 02:15 AM

Who needs Arians and all the winning that came with him when you can have sheer brilliance like this?  

In fact I hope they fire Tomlin and promote Haley.


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
           
Reply
mcmillenandwife
Administrator
*******

Posts: 18,071
Joined: Jan 1970
#46
10-08-2017, 05:24 AM

(10-08-2017, 02:08 AM)Crash Wrote: You're right, the Steelers sucked under Arians.  Two AFC titles, a Super Bowl title.  Didn't mean shit.  


In my opinion, Arians deserves precious little credit for Super Bowl XLIII. 

I think the Steelers won in spite of Arians. Thank goodness they fielded one of the greatest defenses of the last 30 years. Our offense was lackluster all year under Bruce and was really only effective when Ben went no huddle and called the plays or when Ben improvised his way out of the nonsense Arians shackled him with.

Back to Super Bowl XLIII. First and goal from the one on the opening drive. Good job, except Bruce's meatball play-calling (sorry, Krunch  Laugh ) in the red zone forced us to settle for an 18-yard FG. Then in the 3rd quarter, we get six f-ing tries -- SIX!!!! -- from inside the 5 to put the game AWAY... and Bruce's meatball play-calling again leaves us with a short FG. 

God bless James Harrison and his 100-yard INT return. And God bless Ben's escape-ability and 

At the end, the game winning drive... that's BEN, not Bruce. 

Don't bring me dow-ow-own... B-r-r-r-uce!  Dance

But I digress.
Reply
Crash
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 869
Joined: May 2017
#47
10-08-2017, 06:14 AM

(10-08-2017, 05:24 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote: In my opinion, Arians deserves precious little credit for Super Bowl XLIII. 

You're right, he sucked that game.  

They should have cut Ben and fire Arians after winning that game.  

Quote: Then in the 3rd quarter, we get six f-ing tries -- SIX!!!! -- from inside the 5 to put the game AWAY... and Bruce's meatball play-calling again leaves us with a short FG.

Yup Arians made Heath drop that TD in the end zone.  

Everyone got what they wanted after 2011.  

The two time accused rapist was put in his place and told to change what made him a HOF player.  

His OC was fired.  

And Art II hired a former Steelers' cronies kid.  

It's worked wonders for this team since.  
Reply
Crash
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 869
Joined: May 2017
#48
10-08-2017, 06:16 AM

Quote:I think the Steelers won in spite of Arians. Thank goodness they fielded one of the greatest defenses of the last 30 years.

Yeah that blown 4th quarter 20-7 lead.

Great defense indeed.
Reply
Crash
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 869
Joined: May 2017
#49
10-08-2017, 06:18 AM

Quote:God bless James Harrison and his 100-yard INT return.

Yup, he totally ignored what the DC wanted him to do on that play and went 100 yards.

Biggest play of LeBeau's 2nd tenure here, and it took a LB not doing what he was told to do to pull it off.
Reply
mcmillenandwife
Administrator
*******

Posts: 18,071
Joined: Jan 1970
#50
10-08-2017, 06:53 AM

(10-08-2017, 06:16 AM)Crash Wrote:
Quote:I think the Steelers won in spite of Arians. Thank goodness they fielded one of the greatest defenses of the last 30 years.

Yeah that blown 4th quarter 20-7 lead.  

Great defense indeed.


Yes, it was a great defense. Truly great. Among the best to ever play. 

Let's not forget, 7 of those 20 points were scored by James Harrison and that play (which involved hustle by the entire defense) caused a 10-point or 14-point swing. And if Arians and the offense had done their job by finishing drives, it would've been 24-7 or even 28-7. 

Haley has his own red zone issues. I'm not an apologist for him and I'm not even a fan of his. But Arians isn't going to get many kudos from me, either. I thought he stunk for the most part. I was horrified when he came to us. I was at that playoff game when Cleveland was up 24-7 and Arians (the Browns' offensive coordinator at the time) was unable to adjust his game plan to run out the clock, allowing the Steelers to come back and win. I'm thankful he couldn't figure it out in Cleveland because that playoff win over the Browns was probably my greatest personal moment as a Steelers fan. But I never got to a point where I could understand why we would bring a guy like that to Pittsburgh. 

Whisenhunt was outstanding. Chan Gailey was outstanding. Other than that? 'Meh. 

Crash, just knowing your nature to lash out at the imperfections of other current and former Steelers players, coaches, owners, groundskeepers, receptionists, I'm kinda confused as to why Arians is the one human being on this planet that seems incapable of wrong in your eyes?
Reply
mcmillenandwife
Administrator
*******

Posts: 18,071
Joined: Jan 1970
#51
10-08-2017, 06:56 AM

(10-08-2017, 06:18 AM)Crash Wrote:
Quote:God bless James Harrison and his 100-yard INT return.

Yup, he totally ignored what the DC wanted him to do on that play and went 100 yards.  

Biggest play of LeBeau's 2nd tenure here, and it took a LB not doing what he was told to do to pull it off.


That's bullshit. You are 100% wrong. 

James was told to THINK. He was given enough trust by LeBeau to make that move. And if you'll recall, Harrison was complaining because he was getting so much work dropping into coverage during practice that week. 

Harrison didn't do what the "play" said to do, but he did exactly what LeBeau had coached him to do: Think, use his instincts and make a play.
Reply
Crash
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 869
Joined: May 2017
#52
10-08-2017, 07:19 AM

Quote:James was told to THINK

James was told to BLITZ.

Quote:I'm kinda confused as to why Arians is the one human being on this planet that seems incapable of wrong in your eyes?

All I ever said before Arians was fired was that if he was fired? LeBeau should be also. And that it was wrong to blame Ben/BA for LeBeau's defenses sucking ass in the 4th quarter.

But Art II listened to the people and blamed Ben and BA anyway.

And as I said when it happened, that Haley was LeBeau's worst nightmare, and now that his scapegoat was gone LeBeau was on borrowed time, and that's exactly what happened.

LeBeau's 4th quarter defense has sucked for the majority of his coaching career.

But ONLY when a PITTSBURGH GUY became OC, was he ever held responsible for it in Pittsburgh.

But Roethlisberger's career is what really paid the price. Turned a sure-fire HOF QB into a fantasy football, garbage time stat whore who's career has been ruined by handcuffing him to an unqualified, in over his head part time women's golf coach.
Reply
mcmillenandwife
Administrator
*******

Posts: 18,071
Joined: Jan 1970
#53
10-08-2017, 07:54 AM

(10-08-2017, 07:19 AM)Crash Wrote:
Quote:James was told to THINK

James was told to BLITZ.  


I'll say it again. Yes, the play call was for a blitz, but Harrison did what he coached to do... think beyond the play call, use his instincts and make a play. That's not a negative on the coordinator. I've seen interviews with both Harrison and LeBeau about this play and they are in agreement with what I'm saying (which is why I'm saying it). 

Furthermore, James Harrison CLEARLY disagrees with your assessment of LeBeau. No disrespect, Crash... but I'm gonna go with Harrison's take on LeBeau over yours.








(10-08-2017, 07:19 AM)Crash Wrote:
Quote:I'm kinda confused as to why Arians is the one human being on this planet that seems incapable of wrong in your eyes?

All I ever said before Arians was fired was that if he was fired? LeBeau should be also.  And that it was wrong to blame Ben/BA for LeBeau's defenses sucking ass in the 4th quarter.  

But Art II listened to the people and blamed Ben and BA anyway.  

And as I said when it happened, that Haley was LeBeau's worst nightmare, and now that his scapegoat was gone LeBeau was on borrowed time, and that's exactly what happened.  

LeBeau's 4th quarter defense has sucked for the majority of his coaching career.

But ONLY when a PITTSBURGH GUY became OC, was he ever held responsible for it in Pittsburgh.  

But Roethlisberger's career is what really paid the price.  Turned a sure-fire HOF QB into a fantasy football, garbage time stat whore who's career has been ruined by handcuffing him to an unqualified, in over his head part time women's golf coach.

That's fine, I'll take your word for it on what you said when Arians was fired. What I'm puzzled by is the way you lash out at other people on the team in really nasty, personal ways (Ben, Hines, Haley, AJR II, etc) when there's a disagreement about Arians?
Reply
dbsfgyd1
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 15,427
Joined: Apr 2017
#54
10-08-2017, 08:59 AM

(10-08-2017, 02:15 AM)GCrash Wrote: Who needs Arians and all the winning that came with him when you can have sheer brilliance like this?  

In fact I hope they fire Tomlin and promote Haley.

Three guys covering Adams. I’d say that worked. Not sure what your gripe is. If I recall correctly, they did that several times. As for  Finney, it took a player out of the box, AND he was a TE for most of the day. The last time I checked the rules, he is eligible. Further, out of our OL, he is one of the faster ones, and faster than the 1.1 version of Ladarius Green that limped for us last year.

Tomlin is going nowhere, and I would be schocked if Haley was dismissed, mainly because he is doing exactly what they want him to do. Which is set the team up for when Ben calls it quits. A low risk, low reward O with the team dependent on defense for good field position. 

Until then, Ben needs to get it together as he has been off the mark more than we are used to seeing. There will be some occasional pyrotechnics from time to time, but the dude has been in the league for 14 years, and thoroughly abused for about 6 of them. To expect him to play like he did in his 20s is an unrealistic expectation.
Reply
dbsfgyd1
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 15,427
Joined: Apr 2017
#55
10-08-2017, 09:06 AM

(10-08-2017, 07:54 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(10-08-2017, 07:19 AM)Crash Wrote:
Quote:James was told to THINK

James was told to BLITZ.  


I'll say it again. Yes, the play call was for a blitz, but Harrison did what he coached to do... think beyond the play call, use his instincts and make a play. That's not a negative on the coordinator. I've seen interviews with both Harrison and LeBeau about this play and they are in agreement with what I'm saying (which is why I'm saying it). 

Furthermore, James Harrison CLEARLY disagrees with your assessment of LeBeau. No disrespect, Crash... but I'm gonna go with Harrison's take on LeBeau over yours.








(10-08-2017, 07:19 AM)Crash Wrote:
Quote:I'm kinda confused as to why Arians is the one human being on this planet that seems incapable of wrong in your eyes?

All I ever said before Arians was fired was that if he was fired? LeBeau should be also.  And that it was wrong to blame Ben/BA for LeBeau's defenses sucking ass in the 4th quarter.  

But Art II listened to the people and blamed Ben and BA anyway.  

And as I said when it happened, that Haley was LeBeau's worst nightmare, and now that his scapegoat was gone LeBeau was on borrowed time, and that's exactly what happened.  

LeBeau's 4th quarter defense has sucked for the majority of his coaching career.

But ONLY when a PITTSBURGH GUY became OC, was he ever held responsible for it in Pittsburgh.  

But Roethlisberger's career is what really paid the price.  Turned a sure-fire HOF QB into a fantasy football, garbage time stat whore who's career has been ruined by handcuffing him to an unqualified, in over his head part time women's golf coach.

That's fine, I'll take your word for it on what you said when Arians was fired. What I'm puzzled by is the way you lash out at other people on the team in really nasty, personal ways (Ben, Hines, Haley, AJR II, etc) when there's a disagreement about Arians?

Crash has stated many times that Haley was  a nepotism hire as the reason for the Arians, dismissal/retirement and his taking over the offense. I’m going to guess that based on his comments and expressed outrage over it that he must has some inside poop that he is not willing, or able to share.
Reply
Garrett Garlits
All Pro Veteran
****

Posts: 524
Joined: May 2017
#56
10-08-2017, 10:01 AM

I'm most definitely NOT a Haley fan. I'm no chalk jockey, but it doesn't take one of those to know when an offense is hopelessly sluggish and inept, and that's what Haley's offense is most of the time. The only time the Steelers really get moving is when Ben takes charge of the playcalling during the two-minute drill. It just shouldn't be that way, to say the least.

Was Haley a cronyism hire? We'll never know for sure; it wouldn't benefit anyone to admit it even if it was true. But it certainly seems that the Steeler brain trust values Ben's health over the offense's production. In other words, better to have Ben dinking and dunking than making big plays at the risk of being hit.

The problem is, dinking and dunking doesn't win unless you have the '70s Steel Curtain in its prime as your defense, and this team doesn't. The defense is serviceable and could be good or even very good in time, but there's no spark of greatness anywhere near it. What we're left with is an offense with just enough skill to be overhyped and not good enough to actually put points on the board, at least not like they should. It's a lot like the offenses of the eighties; they can move the ball a little at times, but in the end the kicker almost always has to bail them out.

I still think Ben could be a Hall of Famer, but he needs one more Super Bowl to be a lock, and he's not getting it with this offense. I'm not even sure firing Haley at the end of the year (which is the soonest they'll do it, if they do) will help; Ben sounds like he's waiting for the word from Ashley (his wife, for those few who may not know) about when to hang it up, and a new offensive coordinator most likely won't change their minds if they decide it's time.
Reply
Crash
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 869
Joined: May 2017
#57
10-08-2017, 11:03 AM

Quote:Furthermore, James Harrison CLEARLY disagrees with your assessment of LeBeau. No disrespect, Crash... but I'm gonna go with Harrison's take on LeBeau over yours.

So you also must take Roethlisberger and his assessment of Arians over YOURS.

Harrison can SAY what he wants about LeBeau.

But I use the results on the field of LeBeau's BS 4th quarter scheme to do my talking for me.

Quote:I still think Ben could be a Hall of Famer, but he needs one more Super Bowl to be a lock, and he's not getting it with this offense. I'm not even sure firing Haley at the end of the year (which is the soonest they'll do it, if they do) will help; Ben sounds like he's waiting for the word from Ashley (his wife, for those few who may not know) about when to hang it up, and a new offensive coordinator most likely won't change their minds if they decide it's time.

When Kirby Wilson was burned, Ben and the other offensive captains (Then it was Miller and Pouncey) lobbied for Randy Fichtner to get the job.

Art II hired his buddy instead.

History says Ben's a HOF lock. EVERY QB who has won at least three AFC/NFC titles, regardless of SB record, is in Canton.

Warner got inducted, that was the only way voters could logically keep Ben out.

Now that Warner is in? Ben should be a lock also. Ben's career is better than Warner's.
Reply
mcmillenandwife
Administrator
*******

Posts: 18,071
Joined: Jan 1970
#58
10-08-2017, 11:20 AM

(10-08-2017, 11:03 AM)Crash Wrote: So you also must take Roethlisberger and his assessment of Arians over YOURS.

Touche'.



(10-08-2017, 11:03 AM)Crash Wrote: But I use the results on the field of LeBeau's BS 4th quarter scheme to do my talking for me.  

Well, the game DID end on a sack, forced fumble and fumble recovery by LeBeau's defense, so... just sayin'.  Smokin  

Besides, had Arians' offense turned either one of those wasted possessions inside the 5 into TDs and not spotted the Cards a safety, there wouldn't have been an opportunity for a comeback in the first place.



(10-08-2017, 11:03 AM)Crash Wrote: History says Ben's a HOF lock.  EVERY QB who has won at least three AFC/NFC titles, regardless of SB record, is in Canton.  

Warner got inducted, that was the only way voters could logically keep Ben out.

Now that Warner is in?  Ben should be a lock also.  Ben's career is better than Warner's.

Here, we agree.  Thumbsup  Ben is a lock for Canton.
Reply
Crash
Hall of Famer
*****

Posts: 869
Joined: May 2017
#59
10-08-2017, 12:10 PM

Quote:Besides, had Arians' offense turned either one of those wasted possessions inside the 5 into TDs and not spotted the Cards a safety, there wouldn't have been an opportunity for a comeback in the first place

But these "comebacks" happen because as soon the 4th quarter begins killing clock becomes the focal point.  

We had 1st down at the 48 and we ran twice, a sack, and then punted because that's what we used to do 30 years earlier.

Only one problem with that though, LeBeau's prevent gave up another score and put the Cards right back in the game.  

The safety was a BS call.  He steam-rolled Hartwig so bad that the Ref thought Hartwig grabbed him, when he did nothing of the sort.  Wiped out a first down catch.
(This post was last modified: 10-08-2017, 02:21 PM by Crash.)
Reply
mcmillenandwife
Administrator
*******

Posts: 18,071
Joined: Jan 1970
#60
10-08-2017, 05:16 PM

(10-08-2017, 12:10 PM)Crash Wrote:
Quote:Besides, had Arians' offense turned either one of those wasted possessions inside the 5 into TDs and not spotted the Cards a safety, there wouldn't have been an opportunity for a comeback in the first place

But these "comebacks" happen because as soon the 4th quarter begins killing clock becomes the focal point.  

We had 1st down at the 48 and we ran twice, a sack, and then punted because that's what we used to do 30 years earlier.

Only one problem with that though, LeBeau's prevent gave up another score and put the Cards right back in the game.  

The safety was a BS call.  He steam-rolled Hartwig so bad that the Ref thought Hartwig grabbed him, when he did nothing of the sort.  Wiped out a first down catch.

The "comeback" happened largely because Arians' offense failed to FINISH two first-and-goal drives with TDs, one on our first drive and one at at the end of the 3rd quarter with 6 tries that would've buried them. Both of those scenarios began with terrible, slow-developing running plays that lost yardage. You claim Heath dropped a TD, but in reality, he would've been down well short of the goal line had he caught it. 6 tries down there, and not one throw into the end zone. A poorly designed screen that's batted and nearly intercepted. And then that pathetic, poorly disguised QB draw?  Sick

But you did just hit on Arians' major flaw, and it's what has always bothered me about him. 

As you said, killing the clock becomes a focal point late in the game when you have a  lead. But as I said before (as per the '02 playoff game when Arians was O-coordinator for Cleveland), Arians has never been able to effectively run down the clock. We're up 20-7 in the 4th, the defense forces a shitty 27-yard punt that gives us great field position near midfield.  Instead of using the great field position to mount a game-sealing, time consuming drive, we run 3 generic plays, lose 10 yards and punt. We only took 1:59 off the clock.  Sick

I will acknowledge that we played too soft defensively on AZ's ensuing drive. But Ike had excellent coverage on Fitzgerald's first TD (the fade route in the end zone). Fitz is a sure Hall of Famer and he made a great play. It happens.

After that TD, we got the ball back again with 7:25 on the clock. Once again, Arians shows his inability to call plays to run down the clock. A run, a sack, a throw well short of the sticks and a punt. We drained a whopping 1:43 off the clock.  Sick

The defense forces another AZ punt.

And then comes the safety. So once again, Arians fails to run any time off the clock, instead giving a short field to a couple of Hall of Famers. And they made us pay with the perfect play at the perfect time against that two deep defense. Ike blew his coverage and a sure Hall of Famer in the midst of one of the greatest post-seasons any wide receiver has ever had made us pay. 

Thank goodness Ben is a legendary improvisationalist and a true master of the no huddle offense.  Smokin

So you can claim it was LeBeau's "prevent defense" that cost us in the 4th quarter. But in reality, it was the fact that Arians went 3 and out on 3 straight 4th quarter possessions before Ben took over and bailed us out. Like you said, the focal point becomes running down the clock in the 4th quarter, and Arians failed miserably at that goal, just as he has done throughout most of his career.

I'll stop now because I'm starting to feel like we're somehow turning one of the greatest victories in Steelers history into a defeat.  Laugh  I LOVE Super Bowl XLIII. I could watch that game over and over and over and never get tired of it, never feel bad about it... just feel JOY in reliving one of the most exciting Super Bowls of all time. 

Arians wasn't all bad. But I'm glad he's gone. Haley isn't all bad. But if we fail to win the Super Bowl this year, I hope he's gone.
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)