Ben's last statement
Chucktownsteeler
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#1
09-27-2017, 05:58 AM

The Pittsburgh Steelers will be on the sideline standing next week and every week after that. - Ben R.


    Next - Minkah, #39!
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(This post was last modified: 09-27-2017, 05:58 AM by Chucktownsteeler.)
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RaynorShyne
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#2
09-28-2017, 03:42 AM

Did they vote on that?
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spokan steeler
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#3
09-28-2017, 10:57 PM

Personally, I'm starting to meander back into the fold. I still haven't worn any Steeler merchandise since the incident, but I liked Pouncey's comments today. I would like to have seen a real apology from Tomlin and/or Rooney, but I guess if you don't think you did anything wrong, it's tough to apologize.

Still feeling pretty conflicted about it all, but I will probably be watching this weekend.
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RaynorShyne
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#4
09-28-2017, 11:15 PM

His statement:
"Steelers center Maurkice Pouncey told reporters Wednesday that he expects 100 percent participation from the team during this Sunday's national anthem ahead of Pittsburgh's game in Baltimore against the Ravens.
Following comments from President Trump last Friday at a political rally in Alabama, Steelers players decided during a team meeting over the weekend that they would not go onto the field during the anthem. Head coach Mike Tomlin and other coaches stood on the sideline during the anthem, while offensive tackle Alejandro Villanueva, a former U.S. Army Ranger who served in Afghanistan, stood separately outside of the tunnel during "The Star-Spangled Banner."
Villanueva and Ben Roethlisberger have since expressed regret at how Sunday played out, and Tomlin used the majority of his Tuesday session with the media to discuss the fallout over his team's actions during the playing of the national anthem.
"As far as I know, it's 100 percent participation (this week in national anthem)," Pouncey said.
"We love this country. This is America," Pouncey added. "Yeah, we know that there's injustice in this world and different things, but for me, personally, football is football. And that's why we need to end our protest. I told a lot of the guys if you want to do anything in the offseason, or on Tuesdays, I'm fully for it. Team Pouncey will be there with you with everybody we have in organization. We'll be there and we'll help you do whatever you want. But we're football players. And I hate that media and everyone else tries to put politics in this and all this different stuff. Trust me, this team loves this flag. We love what we represent. In this whole entire organization, trust me. Mr. Rooney -- we feel just as bad as everybody else does because it's a lot on our shoulders. And trust me, we really do. And this week we're going to show that. We know that we're sorry for all our fans that were upset about the things that went down. I honestly think that we'll come together and all this will be totally out the window."
Per Pouncey: "Some people obviously feel that we did some things that were disrespectful. In a lot of people's eyes. But at the end of the day, we accept what happened. We're going to grow from it. We just didn't want to be a part of politics and were going to go out there and play football. But we are going to be out there for the national anthem."

-----------------
Now - for a Team that "Doesn't want to make statements" we've had AV, Ben, Tomlin, Pouncey, and Mr. Rooney all come out with statements since Sunday.

That's not 'trying to make things right" - in the business world - that's called "PR Damage Control". Once again - it's a business. A stadium FULL of $10-$15 Terrible Towels waving is a good thing. People burning jerseys on You Tube and raging on Twitter? notsomuch.
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Krunch
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#5
09-29-2017, 12:42 AM

They can grow from it without me.


"Just give me a six-pack and 30 minutes to rest and lets go out and play 'em again!"  
  - Jack Lambert
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Garrett Garlits
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#6
09-29-2017, 03:01 AM

Answer me an honest question: What is this REALLY all about for those of you who are turning off the Steelers? The more I think about it, the less I believe that it was solely about last Sunday's protests, or any others for that matter. Maybe that was the last straw in some cases, but I don't believe for a second that any of you are so superpatrotic that you went from diehard Steeler fans to "I'll never watch these bums again, and they can take their apologies and fart them out their asses" because of one moment of protest.

Is it the lower level of play on the field? Is it all the arrests of players? Is it oversaturation? Is it t hangover from the AFC Championship last year? All of the above or a combination? Remember, a lot of military people and first responders are IN FAVOR of the players' protests, flag, anthem, and all. The police even stood with the Browns in Cleveland. So to make it all and only about standing up for those groups under the circumstances is to suggest that they're too dumb and/or naive to know that they're being insulted, and that's a bunch of crap.

You'd be a lot more credible if you admitted that at least part of your anger is due to things that happened on the field.
(This post was last modified: 09-29-2017, 03:01 AM by Garrett Garlits.)
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spokan steeler
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#7
09-29-2017, 04:47 AM

Garrett

That's a very interesting question, and I admit I've been extremely conflicted this week.  I'm a 22-year military veteran and the proud son-in-law of a retired sheriff.

The rational viewpoint is, at the end of the day, the NFL is nothing but entertainment.  As such, I shudder to contemplate how many rock stars, movie stars, and performers in general always have something moronic and hateful to say about our nation.  I usually don't "boycott" them or furiously denounce them, and their stupid commentary usually just rolls off my back.  One such example is when Jethro Tull's singer said something about how the sight of the American flag makes him afraid twenty some years ago.

Conversely, I don't own twenty Jethro Tull t-shirts.  I don't rearrange my schedule to ensure I don't miss a Jethro Tull concert.  I don't have cherished memories of celebrating Jethro Tull victories with my deceased father, my mother, my brother, my wife and son.  My son's bedroom isn't decorated in wall to wall Jethro Tull paraphenalia. Football is something different.  The NFL is special.

Was the NFL starting to circle the drain before all this?  Interestingly enough, last week, before Donald Trump's statement, I told the wife that in a year or two, after my son leaves the nest and Ben retires, I could really see myself throttling back from the Steelers.  The games are getting more unpleasant to watch.  The commercials are so excessive and tedious that I can't stand to watch a game unless I've DVR'd it.  The referees seem to decide the entire game now, with their incessant personal fouls.  And call me a crackpot, but for quite some time I've genuinely believed the NFL officials are purposefully manipulating the outcomes of the games.

But bottom line, sometimes things like this are decided with the heart and not the brain.  I get it.  I'm a rational person.  I understand what happened Sunday, and why.  But I couldn't bring myself to watch the game, I was glad that they lost, I haven't touched a piece of Steeler apparel since, and I'm still not sure if I will be back or not.  If and when I do come back, it's just not going to feel the same.  I suspect in the end, the Steelers will just be relegated to entertainers, like movie actors, guitar players, and juggling clowns at Rennaissance fairs.
(This post was last modified: 09-29-2017, 04:52 AM by spokan steeler.)
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Rollers
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#8
09-29-2017, 05:26 AM

(09-29-2017, 03:01 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: Answer me an honest question: What is this REALLY all about for those of you who are turning off the Steelers? The more I think about it, the less I believe that it was solely about last Sunday's protests, or any others for that matter. Maybe that was the last straw in some cases, but I don't believe for a second that any of you are so superpatrotic that you went from diehard Steeler fans to "I'll never watch these bums again, and they can take their apologies and fart them out their asses" because of one moment of protest.

Is it the lower level of play on the field? Is it all the arrests of players? Is it oversaturation?  Is it t hangover from the AFC Championship last year? All of the above or a combination? Remember, a lot of military people and first responders are IN FAVOR of the players' protests, flag, anthem, and all. The police even stood with the Browns in Cleveland. So to make it all and only about standing up for those groups under the circumstances is to suggest that they're too dumb and/or naive to know that they're being insulted, and that's a bunch of crap.

You'd be a lot more credible if you admitted that at least part of your anger is due to things that happened on the field.

24 years in the military and here and I will PROMISE you that a vast majority of vets are most certainly NOT in favor of this crap.  I'll be clear for you.  When you do this during the national anthem I see all those people that came home with that flag draped over a coffin.  In honor.  I pretty much went straight from fan to not even caring anymore.  It's a good thing for me.  So when you say "lots" that is a meaningless word which means there could be a few hundred to less.  This year has sucked the fun out of football for me.  The President has to run his mouth and then the players have to act like petulant little children with an "OH YEAH??? WELL HOW ABOUT THIS?"   Both the President and the players acted like little pukes.  Disgusting.  President keeps his mouth shut this is almost over with.  Now?  We get to see moron like Jerry Jones kneeling as if he really believes anything about the protests.  So I'm sick of it.  Sick of hearing about white privilege.  Sick of hearing how racist I am because I support the vast majority of police officers that are willing to die every single day to make me safer and my family.  Sick of the racial divide we inherited from President Obama who fanned those flames every single chance he got.  Tired of seeing a thug that tried to beat a cop to death held up as a hero.  Screw it all.  Hope that helps
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Garrett Garlits
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#9
09-29-2017, 05:47 AM

Thanks for your responses. I can't say I disagree with either of you, really. Maybe if more people reflected on this issue instead of taking knee-jerk positions on either side of the fence, there wouldn't be as much of an issue to debate.

Any other thoughts are more than welcome.
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mcmillenandwife
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#10
09-29-2017, 07:51 AM

(09-29-2017, 03:01 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: You'd be a lot more credible if you admitted that at least part of your anger is due to things that happened on the field.


Well... take a look at the time stamp on my initial comments. 9:35 am, almost 3-1/2 hours before kickoff: NFL Network's reaction to Trump's comments

My reaction to the news of the Steelers' decision to hide in the locker room came at 11:23 am: Steelers won't come out during National Anthem
  • I did go back and edit that post to make note of Alejandro Villanueva's actions so it would match what's on the main page of the website.
That said, I'm not sure why I'm being asked to defend my credibility on the issue of being truly offended by what I view as highly disrespectful, highly unpatriotic behavior, but... whatever.  Eyes  I view what the NFL is doing as a slap in the face of our troops, our vets and all those who have fought and died to protect our freedom, including first responders like police and firefighters.

You'll notice I never claimed I was going to stop watching. I'm not to that point yet. But I did mean it when I said they're not getting anymore of my money in terms of game tickets, jerseys, t-shirts, collectibles, etc. And believe me, I've spent a TON on those kinds of things over the years. No more. The whole family was due for some new jerseys. I'm not going to do it. We go see Steelers games -- at least one, sometimes more -- nearly every year. My record at Steelers games is 34-3... and that's where it will stay unless somebody hands me free tickets. I was poised to buy tickets for the game in Detroit on Oct. 29th since they're available and we're only about an hour from Detroit. I'm SO glad now that I didn't purchase them the prior week when I initially scoped out what seats were still available. Saved myself $600 on tickets plus all the other associated expenses.

I still have NFL Sunday ticket, although I'm not paying for it. It's free right now. But if the Steelers don't come out and behave appropriately this coming Sunday, I will be cancelling that as well. And probably dropping DirecTV, since Sunday Ticket is the primary reason I subscribe to DirecTV. I'm sure Comcast will have some sort of deal running with more channels for less money for new customers.  

So, anyway... yeah... it's real. Honestly, it kinda blows my mind when I see people like you who don't seem to be bothered by it.
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sandfan
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#11
09-29-2017, 08:13 AM

The quality of the product on the field is not the most important aspect of watching the game. At least for me. I got my season tickets in Noll's first season. Watched the team for decades before that. Certainly the quality of the game was not the driver. For most seasons they just plain stunk.

I enjoyed the 70's moved away and gave up my tickets. I watch today but only via a dvr whenever possible. Can't stand commercials. I watch to be entertained. What the Steelers do has a minimal impact on my life. To me they are just entertainment. It's fun to speculate re draft picks, plays, etc. but in the end it's just entertainment.

What we have is a group of grown men, physically at least, who don't seem to have the intellect, communication skills or emotions to address what some perceive as an important matter. For me the flag matters, the military matters, cops matter, fireman matter. That is people who serve the citizens of America come first and foremost and matter the most.

Racism exists. It has always existed and likely will continue to do so. It is not, however, one sided. Not all cops are perfect but when I have to choose between a cop or a felon the choice is pretty obvious. I think, for the most part when the stories play out, the accused cop did the best he or she could under trying circumstances. The media all too quickly takes the side of the perp. That does not happen when the perp is Caucasian. Why is that? If all cops are racists or out of control why is it that the media does not treat every incident equally? I submit it's because the left leaning media has an agenda and too many uninformed Americans get sucked into that agenda.

I'm not a black lives matter person. I'm an all human lives matter. To me the blm movement is just another form of racism. Just like any white lives matter effort should one ever come to fruition.

Sports are a diversion. It matters not if I am watching or playing. Teams don't put any cash in my pocket. Athletics may offer some health benefits but as I age that become harder to achieve. If the nfl went away tomorrow I'd fill my time with activities more important to me. I've not watched an nba or major league baseball game since 2001. Do not miss it one bit. I still watch a bit of hockey but only the Stanley cup games. Mostly as long as the Pens are involved. I like college football. Not basketball or baseball. I played both basketball and baseball through my college days but now those games are just plain boring to watch.

I firmly believe the players kneeling are fools at best and pawns at worst. That stems from my personal experiences in Detroit. I had suites at every venue. Had many opportunities to meet the players. In almost every case I was not impressed. My son spent some of his formative years in that city. I'd let him watch from the suite but the locker rooms and personal meetings with any player was off limits. They are not role models; nor should they be. The are just performers, nothing more. When they kneel for the anthem, much less.
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Garrett Garlits
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#12
09-29-2017, 04:33 PM

Tim,

I read your post earlier, but this is the first chance I've had to respond to it.

I could answer on a lot of different levels, but most would read like personal attacks on various people, most notably President Trump, and that's not my intent. It comes down to this: If kneeling for the anthem was illegal or against a rule that the NFL was trying to enforce, I'd feel differently. But it's not illegal, and the NFL's letting its teams do it for whatsoever reason they will. That means I have no beef with it. The offense you and others may take is no concern of mine whatsoever. In fact, I consider myself to be standing up for America- specifically the First Amendment- when I support the players in the choice they make just as you do in opposing it.

I don't hold the military, police, firefighters, or EMTs on a special pedestal, either. I'm grateful for their service, of course, but they don't rate any higher on my admiration scale than teachers, plumbers, or insurance salesmen. They chose to do their various jobs, and they've done them well in most cases. Fine and dandy. But they're ordinary Joes, and they don't deserve to be protected from insult, slander, or other forms of verbal or symbolic abuse any more than anyone else just because they happen to put on a government or municipal uniform to go to work.

If they feel insulted by what the players are doing because they feel that their uniform and/or past service should entitle them to nothing by fawning adulation for the rest of their lives. they're sadly mistaken. Most of them don't feel that way, anyway; it's those who support them who believe that everything the least bit uncomplimentary said about them or done to them is a grievous insult against the very ideas of freedom and democracy, and that's poppycock in my view, especially when the form of said "insult" is protected by the very same Constitution that soldiers are charged to preserve, protect, and defend.

Finally, I'd like to say that while I support the Steelers' decision to stand for the anthem going forward, I'd also support their right NOT to stand if that's what they'd chosen to do. It's about the right to make a choice, nothing more than that. If they'd chosen to link arms like they did in Green Bay tonight, I'd have been right there with them, at least in spirit.

By the way, Lambeau looked pretty full tonight once the anthem was over, so whoever said that the Packers would feel any backlash first in terms of attendance and fan support just because most of Brown County voted for Trump is due to eat a healthy portion of crow. Or are Packer fans somehow less patriotic because they didn't turn their backs on the green and gold in favor of the red, white, and blue?
(This post was last modified: 09-29-2017, 05:17 PM by Garrett Garlits.)
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sandfan
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#13
09-29-2017, 09:15 PM

Police, military, firemen and emt personnel all too often have to contend with bullets, knives or other weapons while on the job. They are in the business of saving lives, property or defending the public.

I don't see that in any of the other occupations Garrett mentioned. I don't want to totally denigrate the efforts of teachers, plumbers or insurance salesmen but it's fairly obvious to me that the efforts and risks required don't quite stack up with the previous categories.

Therefore, I have a bit more respect and gratitude for the former. If you don't agree I suggest you have your own weapon when the bad man comes knocking. A teacher, plumber or insurance salesman on speed dial is not likely to help.

Lastly I really feel the teaching community has let America down over the last 5 decades or so. We have fallen off a cliff in comparison to other supposedly less developed Nations. I realize some of the onus for that must be placed on parental influence or lack there of. A lot must be placed on the student. But teachers play a major role in the fall. As proof I cite the decision made by all the college grads staffing nfl teams.
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mcmillenandwife
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#14
09-29-2017, 11:50 PM

(09-29-2017, 04:33 PM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: I don't hold the military, police, firefighters, or EMTs on a special pedestal, either. I'm grateful for their service, of course, but they don't rate any higher on my admiration scale than teachers, plumbers, or insurance salesmen. They chose to do their various jobs, and they've done them well in most cases. Fine and dandy. But they're ordinary Joes, and they don't deserve to be protected from insult, slander, or other forms of verbal or symbolic abuse any more than anyone else just because they happen to put on a government or municipal uniform to go to work.  

You have GOT to be kidding me? These people who risk their lives and well being, every single day, for the sake of others don't rate higher than a salesman or plumber to you?  Scared  Are you kidding me? I mean, look, I enjoy what I do. I love that I've been blessed to spread rock and roll all over the country for the last few decades.  Laugh  But my level of service to my fellow man doesn't even begin to compare to what military, police, firefighters and EMTs do every day. 

Furthermore, everybody deserves to be protected from slander. Slander is illegal, my friend. Frankly, I find it bizarre that you're so accepting of the insult and abuse of others. Vocal disagreement with an idea is one thing; abuse of an individual is entirely different. I think you need to study, reconsider and refine your views, because what you just said is pretty appalling. 

I'm really curious... how old are you? I'm just trying to get a bead on your frame of reference. 



(09-29-2017, 04:33 PM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: I could answer on a lot of different levels, but most would read like personal attacks on various people, most notably President Trump, and that's not my intent. It comes down to this: If kneeling for the anthem was illegal or against a rule that the NFL was trying to enforce, I'd feel differently. But it's not illegal, and the NFL's letting its teams do it for whatsoever reason they will. That means I have no beef with it. The offense you and others may take is no concern of mine whatsoever. In fact, I consider myself to be standing up for America- specifically the First Amendment- when I support the players in the choice they make just as you do in opposing it.

Ah, and there's the rub. For you -- like NFL leadership and most of the players protesting -- the component of President Trump's involvement is overshadowing propriety. Trump weighed in, pissed people off, and instead of ignoring the obvious manipulation, people go nuts. The media and left go nuts because they despise Trump, so to reject him, they decide to collectively urinate on the flag; the right goes nuts because they see the left urinating on the flag. 

Here's the difference in my opinion. The right would be going nuts about this no matter who was denigrating the flag & National Anthem or why. The cause would not matter. Conversely, I believe the left is only riding this little "protest" bandwagon because it involves two enticing components: rebuking President Trump and feeling like they're supporting a "pet" social issue. 

Garrett, I can guarantee you... if these protests were about something like the right to life and protecting the unborn, all of this First Amendment "it's their right to free speech" talk from the left would go right out the window. The right wouldn't support it, either, because they would understand that denigrating the flag is the wrong vehicle, regardless of the cause. But the left would suddenly be draped in red, white and blue, hand over heart, saluting furiously. 

Hypocrites.  Eyes



(09-29-2017, 04:33 PM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: If they feel insulted by what the players are doing because they feel that their uniform and/or past service should entitle them to nothing by fawning adulation for the rest of their lives. they're sadly mistaken. Most of them don't feel that way, anyway; it's those who support them who believe that everything the least bit uncomplimentary said about them or done to them is a grievous insult against the very ideas of freedom and democracy, and that's poppycock in my view, especially when the form of said "insult" is protected by the very same Constitution that soldiers are charged to preserve, protect, and defend.

You are so upside down on this, Garrett. The people with the misguided sense of "entitlement" in this scenario are the protesters, not the protestedLaugh  Really, I'm supposed to feel the pain of a bunch of twenty-something millionaires protesting the iniquities of the very country that enabled them to become millionaires while they urinate on the very people who made it possible???  Pi_freak 

The hypocrisy, the irony, the stupidity.

I still marvel at the ignorance of the Ravens and Jaguars, who chose to kneel during The National Anthem but stood during "God Save the Queen" despite the fact that the British slave trade was 100% responsible for slavery being in America (which was a British colony) in the first place.  Laugh  

Apparently, T. Suggs is not a history major.  Cool02 In any case, it kinda proves my point in a different thread that these guys really aren't sure what they're even protesting about, making it all the more ridiculous.  



(09-29-2017, 04:33 PM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: Finally, I'd like to say that while I support the Steelers' decision to stand for the anthem going forward, I'd also support their right NOT to stand if that's what they'd chosen to do. It's about the right to make a choice, nothing more than that. If they'd chosen to link arms like they did in Green Bay tonight, I'd have been right there with them, at least in spirit. 

By the way, Lambeau looked pretty full tonight once the anthem was over, so whoever said that the Packers would feel any backlash first in terms of attendance and fan support just because most of Brown County voted for Trump is due to eat a healthy portion of crow. Or are Packer fans somehow less patriotic because they didn't turn their backs on the green and gold in favor of the red, white, and blue?

Support away. But I'd love to see your reaction if "Right to Life" got involved in a pregame protest of some sort. Maybe pink & blue ribbons or something? Or a special "right to life" gesture after TDs are scored? 
There would be fines levied so fast, the players wouldn't know what hit 'em.
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spokan steeler
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#15
09-30-2017, 02:54 AM

I think one of Tim's earlier comments kind of hit the nail on the head.  Is there going to be a huge plunge in ratings?  Probably not. What else are you going to watch?  The WNBA?
Will there be a huge drop-off in ticket sales?  Probably not.  Most franchises are sold out in advance for years, so any discernible decrease in ticket sales will be negligible. Even if disgusted season-ticket holders dump their tickets, someone else will buy them, and no one will notice the difference.

Where I suspect the NFL will really take it on the chin in the next year or two is MERCHANDISE.  It's one thing to tune in for free and watch 300 pound men crush each other; it's the ultimate reality show. But when you pay $30 for a hat or $150 for a jersey, you're telling the world "Dammit, I LOVE my team and I LOVE the NFL.  I am PROUD AS HELL of my team and want the world to know it."  And I just don't think people are going to be feeling that way for quite a while.
(This post was last modified: 09-30-2017, 02:59 AM by spokan steeler.)
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Garrett Garlits
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#16
10-01-2017, 05:43 AM

Tim,

The only thing I regret in my entire statement is the use of the word "slander", which refers to an illegal act. Other than that, everything stands.

If you've ever been in a classroom, you'll know that teachers in this day and age take their sanity and physical safety every day when they go to work. That's one reason why I didn't continue as a teacher past the subbing stage; I loved the teaching part, but I wasn't able to handle the physical demands of the job, and in an urban setting I would have been useless if called upon to break up fights due to my physical disability. There is physical danger in today's schools just like there was ten of fifteen years ago when I tried to pursue a teaching career, and if you're really unlucky, some of them can resemble battlefields.

As far as propriety, the whole idea of protest is to DISTURB propriety. What good is it if you're following the "rules" of the people you're protesting against? The whole point is to say, "No, we WILL NOT stand for the anthem with our hands over our hearts. We will (do such-and-such) precisely BECAUSE it isn't considered proper behavior. Maybe then you'll deal with us on OUR terms, not yours. If you don't choose to this week, maybe you will next week when we break your so-called 'rules' again."

Way to minimize the protest by pretty much painting the players as confused, stupid sheep in need of guidance from right-thinking adults. I guess all DJs are space cadets whose brains have been baked by too many drugs and whose ears have been reduced to tapioca by too much noise. No? Well, if you don't want to be stereotyped, how about not doing it to others before you know what you're talking about? Most of the players I've seen have been very clear about what they're protesting and why.

Next, why shouldn't the Ravens and Jaguars have stood for "God Save The Queen"? It wasn't England they had the problem with. The Saints and Dolphins will undoubtedly do the same tomorrow, regardless of how they choose to treat our anthem.

Finally, if you want to talk about irony, think about a website owner who criticizes the Steelers and the NFL for bringing politics into sports, then plasters his political feelings on the homepage where no one can avoid them. A word of advice, friend: Get that "COWARDS!" baloney off the front page NOW, and never EVER discuss politics or anything but Steeler football on it again. Every time I come onto this site I have to look at it, and I've had enough. You're attacking a group of people that I've chosen to consider part of my extended family since I was born (January 13, 1975, since you're curious), and I'm tired of it. Save your diatribes for the message boards.

I have many of the same exact broadcasts you have in my private DVD collection, and I'll bet others do too. We don't need this site if it continues to offend us. It's a good place most of the time, but it's not the only place people can get their classic football fix. To paraphrase Michael Jordan, "Liberals and anthem protesters watch old Steeler games too."
(This post was last modified: 10-01-2017, 06:07 AM by Garrett Garlits.)
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Rollers
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#17
10-01-2017, 06:44 AM

(10-01-2017, 05:43 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: Tim,

The only thing I regret in my entire statement is the use of the word "slander", which refers to an illegal act. Other than that, everything stands.

If you've ever been in a classroom, you'll know that teachers in this day and age take their sanity and physical safety every day when they go to work. That's one reason why I didn't continue as a teacher past the subbing stage; I loved the teaching part, but I wasn't able to handle the physical demands of the job, and in an urban setting I would have been useless if called upon to break up fights due to my physical disability. There is physical danger in today's schools just like there was ten of fifteen years ago when I tried to pursue a teaching career, and if you're really unlucky, some of them can resemble battlefields.

As far as propriety, the whole idea of protest is to DISTURB propriety. What good is it if you're following the "rules" of the people you're protesting against? The whole point is to say, "No, we WILL NOT stand for the anthem with our hands over our hearts. We will (do such-and-such) precisely BECAUSE it isn't considered proper behavior. Maybe then you'll deal with us on OUR terms, not yours. If you don't choose to this week, maybe you will next week when we break your so-called 'rules' again."

Way to minimize the protest by pretty much painting the players as confused, stupid sheep in need of guidance from right-thinking adults. I guess all DJs are space cadets whose brains have been baked by too many drugs and whose ears have been reduced to tapioca by too much noise. No? Well, if you don't want to be stereotyped, how about not doing it to others before you know what you're talking about? Most of the players I've seen have been very clear about what they're protesting and why.

Next, why shouldn't the Ravens and Jaguars have stood for "God Save The Queen"? It wasn't England they had the problem with. The Saints and Dolphins will undoubtedly do the same tomorrow, regardless of how they choose to treat our anthem.

Finally, if you want to talk about irony, think about a website owner who criticizes the Steelers and the NFL for bringing politics into sports, then plasters his political feelings on the homepage where no one can avoid them. A word of advice, friend: Get that "COWARDS!" baloney off the front page NOW, and never EVER discuss politics or anything but Steeler football on it again. Every time I come onto this site I have to look at it, and I've had enough. You're attacking a group of people that I've chosen to consider part of my extended family since I was born (January 13, 1975, since you're curious), and I'm tired of it. Save your diatribes for the message boards.

I have many of the same exact broadcasts you have in my private DVD collection, and I'll bet others do too. We don't need this site if it continues to offend us.  It's a good place most of the time, but it's not the only place people can get their classic football fix. To paraphrase Michael Jordan, "Liberals and anthem protesters watch old Steeler games too."

Well see ya!  You have the exact same right all others do here.  I can't stand the protests.  Hate them.  Can you show me where Dr. King protested the flag?  He did it the right way.  He got out there where it meant something.  Put his life on the line.  HE changed things.  HE made a HUGE difference.  For your information those of us that served for a long time in the military see this as them disrespecting the flag.  Kapernick made the statement that he would not honor the FLAG of the US.  These are the biggest cowards in the world.  I did four combat tours.  Almost died for my country.  You?  What unit were you in? How many combat tours?  Just interested.  And no I don't think a person has to have served to be patriotic.  But in your case I'm tired of it.  You wanted discussion remember?  Now?  You give orders like a spoiled brat.  I'm not here for any "classic football fix?  I'm here because I like the site.  You wanted discussion?  You got it.  Now?  not so much.  NO teaching situations come close to resembling a battlefield.  NONE.  I don't care what city it's in.  I've been on many battlefields and those that have truly been there know you're full of crap.  There's nothing like a motivated well trained enemy trying to kill you with modern weapons. Nothing like it.  So save your metaphors.  Again those of us that are veterans understand what disprespecting this flag means.  It means EVERYTHING to us.  

So they can do what they want and we can react how we want.  I will NEVER disrespect my flag or my country.  I will fight like hell to correct injustice to minorities anywhere I see it.  Our church is involved in the inner city of Harrisburg serving the minority community on a continuing basis.  Fixing homes, doctors in our church doing house calls running a home for unwed mothers providing day care for moms that want to work mentoring young women that have kids and you know what?  We make a difference every single day.  These pampered fools?  NONE  In fact they build that racial divide even larger.  

So sorry to see your hurt and all.  But feel free to exercise your right to leave.  You are free to say whatever you want here.  From a 24 year veteran who has lost blood for this country and almost died I will speak against this protest of the flag as long as I wish.  I will also continue to make a huge difference in the lives of the minorities we minister to on a daily basis.  Yeah I'm old and crotchety.  But I'm good with that.  classrooms resembling battlefields.  Almost swore again at this point but I won't.  I don't care how violent a classroom is it will NEVER resemble a battlefield except in the minds of those that have never seen an actual battlefield.  I'm done responding to this crap.  

Tim I ask your forgiveness for this post.  It was not in line with my christian belief system and was probably way over the top.  feel free to delete it and I apologize to the poster and the rest of the board.  

These are the people I chose to honor by standing for the flag and singing the National anthem. That's my dad on the left. THESE guys fought real nazis. sorry tim


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(This post was last modified: 10-01-2017, 06:46 AM by Rollers.)
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mcmillenandwife
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#18
10-01-2017, 07:22 AM

(10-01-2017, 05:43 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: If you've ever been in a classroom, you'll know that teachers in this day and age take their sanity and physical safety every day when they go to work. That's one reason why I didn't continue as a teacher past the subbing stage; I loved the teaching part, but I wasn't able to handle the physical demands of the job, and in an urban setting I would have been useless if called upon to break up fights due to my physical disability. There is physical danger in today's schools just like there was ten of fifteen years ago when I tried to pursue a teaching career, and if you're really unlucky, some of them can resemble battlefields.

My wife (a former 8th-grade English teacher) left teaching for this very reason. What's your point? That teachers should be viewed with the same high level of regard as first responders? I'll give that one the nod, I guess. For good teachers, anyway. That's why I politely sidestepped them in my earlier response. 




(10-01-2017, 05:43 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: As far as propriety, the whole idea of protest is to DISTURB propriety. What good is it if you're following the "rules" of the people you're protesting against? The whole point is to say, "No, we WILL NOT stand for the anthem with our hands over our hearts. We will (do such-and-such) precisely BECAUSE it isn't considered proper behavior. Maybe then you'll deal with us on OUR terms, not yours. If you don't choose to this week, maybe you will next week when we break your so-called 'rules' again."

Thanks for the unnecessary explanation of the notion of a protest, but you're still missing the point. Rosa Parks protested ON THE BUS because the racist seating laws on buses were unjust. The ensuing boycott was against THE BUS SYSTEM because the racist seating laws on buses were unjust. Montgomery was forced to change their racist seating laws ON THEIR BUSES because of the protests and boycotts. 

Perhaps you'll notice that Rosa Parks didn't choose to kneel at a completely unrelated football game to affect REAL change. Because that wouldn't have made sense (just like it doesn't make sense now). Instead, she wisely attacked the problem at its source... on the bus... and changed the world.  

Kneeling during the National Anthem is equivalent to wearing a red AIDS ribbon while urinating on the carpet. 




(10-01-2017, 05:43 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: Way to minimize the protest by pretty much painting the players as confused, stupid sheep in need of guidance from right-thinking adults. I guess all DJs are space cadets whose brains have been baked by too many drugs and whose ears have been reduced to tapioca by too much noise. No? Well, if you don't want to be stereotyped, how about not doing it to others before you know what you're talking about? Most of the players I've seen have been very clear about what they're protesting and why.

First, why are we talking about DJ's? I must admit, I kinda agree with your stereotypical description of them... I'm just not sure how we got there.  Laugh

Secondly, I do basically view the players kneeling are confused sheep. Not stupid... but ignorant. People with a solid understanding of the situation wouldn't choose to do what they're doing. 




(10-01-2017, 05:43 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: Next, why shouldn't the Ravens and Jaguars have stood for "God Save The Queen"? It wasn't England they had the problem with. The Saints and Dolphins will undoubtedly do the same tomorrow, regardless of how they choose to treat our anthem.

I already explained it (British slave trade). It just proves the confusion of why they're even doing what they're doing. 




(10-01-2017, 05:43 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: Finally, if you want to talk about irony, think about a website owner who criticizes the Steelers and the NFL for bringing politics into sports, then plasters his political feelings on the homepage where no one can avoid them. A word of advice, friend: Get that "COWARDS!" baloney off the front page NOW, and never EVER discuss politics or anything but Steeler football on it again. Every time I come onto this site I have to look at it, and I've had enough. You're attacking a group of people that I've chosen to consider part of my extended family since I was born (January 13, 1975, since you're curious), and I'm tired of it. Save your diatribes for the message boards.

I get it, you're playing the role of Donald Trump now, right?  Laugh  If you're going to do it right, you'll have to call me an SOB.  Pi_bigsmile




(10-01-2017, 05:43 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: I have many of the same exact broadcasts you have in my private DVD collection, and I'll bet others do too. We don't need this site if it continues to offend us.  It's a good place most of the time, but it's not the only place people can get their classic football fix. To paraphrase Michael Jordan, "Liberals and anthem protesters watch old Steeler games too."

Garrett, do whatever you like. You're probably not aware, but this site has been here for over 20 years (with a much wider following than it has now) and politics, religion and just about every other "sensitive" topic you can think of have always been discussed here. Much more in the past than now, frankly. That's why it's named after me and not called "SteelerGameMania.com" or something similar. It's about me and what I'm interested in.

I find this odd flag thing interesting. So do you, obviously. We disagree and I'm cool with that. I enjoy the debate and discussion and I rarely get upset with the folks I debate and disagree with. 

Stay if you want. Leave if you want. Your choice. But as far as I'm concerned, you're welcome here anytime... in spite of your misguided, liberal views.  Pi_wink1
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mcmillenandwife
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#19
10-01-2017, 08:46 AM

(10-01-2017, 06:44 AM)Rollers Wrote: Well see ya!  You have the exact same right all others do here.  I can't stand the protests.  Hate them.  Can you show me where Dr. King protested the flag?  He did it the right way.  He got out there where it meant something.  Put his life on the line.  HE changed things.  HE made a HUGE difference.  For your information those of us that served for a long time in the military see this as them disrespecting the flag.  Kapernick made the statement that he would not honor the FLAG of the US.  These are the biggest cowards in the world.  I did four combat tours.  Almost died for my country.  You?  What unit were you in? How many combat tours?  Just interested.  And no I don't think a person has to have served to be patriotic.  But in your case I'm tired of it.  You wanted discussion remember?  Now?  You give orders like a spoiled brat.  I'm not here for any "classic football fix?  I'm here because I like the site.  You wanted discussion?  You got it.  Now?  not so much.  NO teaching situations come close to resembling a battlefield.  NONE.  I don't care what city it's in.  I've been on many battlefields and those that have truly been there know you're full of crap.  There's nothing like a motivated well trained enemy trying to kill you with modern weapons. Nothing like it.  So save your metaphors.  Again those of us that are veterans understand what disprespecting this flag means.  It means EVERYTHING to us.  

So they can do what they want and we can react how we want.  I will NEVER disrespect my flag or my country.  I will fight like hell to correct injustice to minorities anywhere I see it.  Our church is involved in the inner city of Harrisburg serving the minority community on a continuing basis.  Fixing homes, doctors in our church doing house calls running a home for unwed mothers providing day care for moms that want to work mentoring young women that have kids and you know what?  We make a difference every single day.  These pampered fools?  NONE  In fact they build that racial divide even larger.  

So sorry to see your hurt and all.  But feel free to exercise your right to leave.  You are free to say whatever you want here.  From a 24 year veteran who has lost blood for this country and almost died I will speak against this protest of the flag as long as I wish.  I will also continue to make a huge difference in the lives of the minorities we minister to on a daily basis.  Yeah I'm old and crotchety.  But I'm good with that.  classrooms resembling battlefields.  Almost swore again at this point but I won't.  I don't care how violent a classroom is it will NEVER resemble a battlefield except in the minds of those that have never seen an actual battlefield.  I'm done responding to this crap.  

Tim I ask your forgiveness for this post.  It was not in line with my christian belief system and was probably way over the top.  feel free to delete it and I apologize to the poster and the rest of the board.  

These are the people I chose to honor by standing for the flag and singing the National anthem.  That's my dad on the left.  THESE guys fought real nazis.  sorry tim


Awesome pic with your dad, Rollers. No need to apologize to me. I have no problem with a single word you said. The only place we differ is that I took Garrett's "orders" as tongue-in-cheek, not literal; just a poke a President Trump.
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Garrett Garlits
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#20
10-02-2017, 10:42 AM

Tim,

Your explanation of why the protests make no sense to you was actually very illuminating. I really don't have a rebuttal for it except to say that protesting at a nationally televised football game means more people see the protest than would see it at a small community police station, which kind of proves the other side's point about the players being in this as much for visibility as for their cause.

As far as the DJ remarks, I thought you were a DJ, the way you talked about bringing rock 'n' roll to a lot of people. But then I remembered your YouTube page and realized you have a band. Sorry for the mixup.

The thing about the British slave trade is something else I really don't have a response for. I was a history major, and I didn't get the connection either at first. Trust me, the players didn't put nearly as much thought into this as you did.

I wasn't playing a role when I said to get that stuff off the homepage; I was a thousand percent serious and speaking as myself. I was also being serious when I said that I hope to never see anything like it on the page again. Even the current message is cutting it close. If you want to complain about others mixing politics and sports, you can't do the same just because you own a website.

I'm not going to make a big deal about staying or leaving or anything else; that's being a bit of a drama queen. You'll see me around, but since the Steelers stood today, I'm retiring from this conversation and sticking to football from now on. My views haven't changed, but I see no point in sticking my neck out to defend the likes of the Ravens. By the way and once and for all, I support the Steelers for choosing to stand today.

You're a good man, Tim, and you run a great site. Thanks for listening, and as I said, your replies have made me think. That's more than a lot of people on both sides have done since this whole mess started.
(This post was last modified: 10-02-2017, 10:44 AM by Garrett Garlits.)
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Chucktownsteeler
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#21
10-02-2017, 10:57 AM

Just a quick question and I am asking in all sincerity, who owns this site, Tim or Garrett?

Seems like Garrett is asking for the front page to be altered or else the site is gone.

I apologize if I am reading this incorrectly.


    Next - Minkah, #39!
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mcmillenandwife
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#22
10-02-2017, 11:16 AM

(10-02-2017, 10:42 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: Your explanation of why the protests make no sense to you was actually very illuminating. I really don't have a rebuttal for it except to say that protesting at a nationally televised football game means more people see the protest than would see it at a small community police station, which kind of proves the other side's point about the players being in this as much for visibility as for their cause.

Garrett, I'm not buyin' it. Every one of these guys can reach thousands, many of them hundreds of thousands or even millions of people via Twitter, Facebook and other social media. Colin Kaepernick has 1.3M followers on Twitter. Marshawn Lynch has over 850k. I'm sorry, but lack of exposure isn't an issue for these guys. 

What they're doing is cheap, lazy, disrespectful and misguided. 

I'll let it go now... for now.  Pi_wink1




(10-02-2017, 10:42 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: As far as the DJ remarks, I thought you were a DJ, the way you talked about bringing rock 'n' roll to a lot of people. But then I remembered your YouTube page and realized you have a band. Sorry for the mixup.

Regarding the band on the YouTube site, those are my kids when they were like in 7th and 10th grade.  Pi_bigsmile

Once upon a time, I was a gigging musician... but it's been 20+ years ago. I gave guitar lessons for over 20 years when I was younger, but I rarely pick it up these days.  

I do still work in the music business, however. I'm the District Manager for Yamaha in the Midwest (Pro Music Division, not the motorcycle side) and before that, I was National Field Sales Manager for Fender Musical Instruments. I came to Yamaha 2 years ago, and I was with Fender for over 10 years before that. 




(10-02-2017, 10:42 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: The thing about the British slave trade is something else I really don't have a response for. I was a history major, and I didn't get the connection either at first. Trust me, the players didn't put nearly as much thought into this as you did.

I agree, they haven't put much thought into it. That's why I think it's missing the mark and pissing people off. 




(10-02-2017, 10:42 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: I wasn't playing a role when I said to get that stuff off the homepage; I was a thousand percent serious and speaking as myself. I was also being serious when I said that I hope to never see anything like it on the page again. Even the current message is cutting it close. If you want to complain about others mixing politics and sports, you can't do the same just because you own a website.

I'm not going to make a big deal about staying or leaving or anything else; that's being a bit of a drama queen. You'll see me around, but since the Steelers stood today, I'm retiring from this conversation and sticking to football from now on. My views haven't changed, but I see no point in sticking my neck out to defend the likes of the Ravens. By the way and once and for all, I support the Steelers for choosing to stand today.

You're a good man, Tim, and you run a great site. Thanks for listening, and as I said, your replies have made me think. That's more than a lot of people on both sides have done since this whole mess started.

All good. You're a good guy, too, and I enjoy the debate.
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mcmillenandwife
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#23
10-02-2017, 11:17 AM

(10-02-2017, 10:57 AM)Chucktownsteeler Wrote: Just a quick question and I am asking in all sincerity, who owns this site, Tim or Garrett?

Seems like Garrett is asking for the front page to be altered or else the site is gone.

I apologize if I am reading this incorrectly.

Laugh  Pretty sure it's me, C-town.

Pretty sure.  Pi_bigsmile
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Krunch
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#24
10-02-2017, 02:26 PM

Rollers - you slayed me with your words and I share every feeling you do about my nation and flag.  Serving in the Air Force for 21 years was way less complex and intense a life as your's was in actual combat, but the committment to service, love of country and love for your buddies in the same boat is shared by me and simply just can't be replicated in civilian life.  Like you, I ache with love for my country and can never tolerate people ditzing on it.  Yes, anyone has a right to do anything they chose as long as it is legal. Just as anyone can tolerate wealthy athletes ditzing their country or they can chose not to tolerate it.  Hypocrisy reigns with NFL Players.  Whenever one of the thugs beats on a woman, acts crazy in public or such they lash out that they don't want the responsibility to be a role model. Yet when it is cool to protest the flag and what it represents they are all kinds of socially responsible.  Hypocrites.  Losers.

Tim - thanks for supporting the only logical and correct position on these protesting morons.  Thanks for wearing your heart on your sleeve when it comes to being an amazing patriot!

At work today, the game was on and my co-workers were shocked that I was not sneaking into the lounge to watch things.  I told them I was sickened by the events of last week and was done with this 2017 team.  I heard they won.  Meh........

I'll still be present on this board because, this board is not the Steelers.  It is a collection of intelligent, thoughtful people and I can't step away from something I've been part of for God only knows how many years.  O'Dummel days at least,,crap that's like 26-27 years!


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Crash
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#25
10-02-2017, 02:51 PM

But the Steelers stood to a man in Chicago also. But 52 of them stood in the tunnel.
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mcmillenandwife
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10-02-2017, 04:09 PM

(10-02-2017, 02:51 PM)Crash Wrote: But the Steelers stood to a man in Chicago also.  But 52 of them stood in the tunnel.

So... what are you saying here, Crash? Are you equivocating? 

If anyone out there is struggling to see a distinction between last week and this week, I can help.  Pi_bigsmile
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RaynorShyne
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#27
10-03-2017, 02:48 AM

(09-29-2017, 05:47 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: Thanks for your responses. I can't say I disagree with either of you, really. Maybe if more people reflected on this issue instead of taking knee-jerk positions on either side of the fence, there wouldn't be as much of an issue to debate.

Any other thoughts are more than welcome.

No knee jerk reaction here, either.  21 years, Army Retired.  Current Sr-Vice Commander of my VFW post.  There's a thing called patriotism.  There's a thing called "Americanism".   The idea of an entertainment organization that professes to support the military (http://www.nfl.com/salute) and routinely does a good job at doing so, would allow it's employees to conduct such a protest at a time the United States is still in a shooting war, irks the living shit out of me.  

That's what they are - employees.  If any professional athlete wants to protest during their own time - fine.  They represent themselves and their own views.  That's the heart of America.   However, when they don a uniform, they aren't individuals.  They are official representatives of that NFL franchise.  "Michael Bennett" the individual is not standing on a street corner in jeans protesting injustice.  Michael Bennett OF THE NFL SEATTLE SEAHAWKS sits during the anthem, thus representing his team.  "Did you see that guy FROM THE SEAHAWKS sitting?"

Michael Bennett signed a 3 year, $30,500,000 contract with the Seattle Seahawks, including a $8,000,000 signing bonus, $14,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $10,166,667. In 2017, Bennett will earn a base salary of $6,500,000, a signing bonus of $8,000,000 and a roster bonus of $1,031,250, while carrying a cap hit of $11,268,750 and a dead cap value of $15,450,000.

So - my 'beef' is not with the individuals - it's with the league.  The reaction isn't knee jerk.  I can happily disagree with an individual - that's my right.  The idea that everything behind that NFL shield supports the position of disrespecting the flag that I've wrapped my soldiers in?  That I have an issue with.
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dbsfgyd1
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#28
10-04-2017, 10:41 PM

I really should stay out of this, but being honest, I have huge mixed feeling on this subject. I truly STILL love the Steelers, but this was a golden opportunity to show they truly get that a majority of fans that also love the game, not to mention forking out hard earned cash to make millionaires out of the players and billionaires out of the owners, might find it offensive and inappropriate. The fact is, there are two very clear sides to this fiasco, and the best the Steelers could come up with was an abstention? Very disappointing indeed.
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Krunch
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#29
10-05-2017, 02:07 AM

Raynor - Served 21 years myself and you summed up my feelings perfectly. The inmates are running the asylum in the NFL. Pussy leadership all over the place and definitely with the Steelers, especially from, "Be My Buddy Tomlin."

Just curious, Does anyone on this board work for a company that would allow employees to conduct disrespectful behavior on company grounds while on the clocK? If so, would the company actually endorse it like so many owners and coaches are doing around the NFL?


"Just give me a six-pack and 30 minutes to rest and lets go out and play 'em again!"  
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