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dbsfgyd1
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#31
10-22-2017, 01:41 AM

(10-22-2017, 01:09 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(10-21-2017, 11:22 PM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: I'm nor exactly sure of the numbers, but I know that attendance hasn't dropped by anywhere close to fifty percent. Neither have ratings. In fact, Monday Night Football's ratings are UP six percent over the same week for last year.

Most of shat you're saying is wishful thinking, and even if it's not the league has made a conscious decision to proceed in the way it has, and they surely know by now that they're costing themselves money. It's just possible that they consider the loss of right-wing (for the most part) fans and their money a necessary price to pay to promote racial harmony and understanding in the way THEY choose, not the way you or anyone else think they should.

It's not going to drop 50%. Maybe 25 years from now, it'll be down 50%. But not short term. It only takes a few percent to really impact their bottom line and effect player salaries. 

The NFL has a very healthy 15% operating margin. A 6%-8% decline in viewership (which seems to be the current range) is HUGE. And I expect the decline in revenue from clothing and collectibles will be larger than that. A whole lot more people will be getting NFL Sunday Ticket for free next year than this year, and far fewer will be paying for the service. 

The crazy thing is, there are smart and constructive ways to make social change, to fight inequality, to fight racism and sexism and all the other isms. Protesting the National Anthem and the flag is not one of them. It's stupid. It's ultimately going to hurt the players and the league while doing nothing to improve race relations or people's lives. THose kinds of positive changes are made OFF the field.

Whatever. They pissed in their own bed and now they get to lie in it.

As usual, a well measured post. Let me add, while it is easy to point fingers to the players taking the knee, this a huge blunder by the league, owners and players a like.
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Chucktownsteeler
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#32
10-22-2017, 03:16 AM

Walking through a local store yesterday I saw the entire NFL paraphernalia section was marked 25% off. That includes shirts, hats, cups, pennants, etc.


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Garrett Garlits
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#33
10-22-2017, 04:20 AM

How does anything in the last two pages (including by ne, unfortunately) address the original problem I had with dbs' statement that the players' protests must automatically mean that they're sick with CTE, meaning that if they had fully functioning brains they wouldn't be protesting? Not only is that wrong, it implies that today's players (most of whom are black, don't forget) aren't capable of determining with a clear head when and where to voice their complaints.

Did anyone stop to think that maybe they made a conscious decision to suffer whatever financial and professional consequences may come their way in order to use their fleeting athletic stardom as a vehicle for social change? How is that not thinking clearly?
(This post was last modified: 10-22-2017, 04:21 AM by Garrett Garlits.)
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mcmillenandwife
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#34
10-22-2017, 05:10 AM

(10-22-2017, 04:20 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: How does anything in the last two pages (including by ne, unfortunately) address the original problem I had with dbs' statement that the players' protests must automatically mean that they're sick with CTE, meaning that if they had fully functioning brains they wouldn't be protesting? Not only is that wrong, it implies that today's players (most of whom are black, don't forget) aren't capable of determining with a clear head when and where to voice their complaints.

Some of us recognize tongue-in-cheek comments when we see them.  Pi_wink1  There's nothing to address there. 



(10-22-2017, 04:20 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: Did anyone stop to think that maybe they made a conscious decision to suffer whatever financial and professional consequences may come their way in order to use their fleeting athletic stardom as a vehicle for social change? How is that not thinking clearly?

No, I don't think much thought was put into it by the overwhelming majority of players beyond their initial knee-jerk reactions on either side of the issue. If they were truly thinking this though, they would have ignored the noise coming from both sides and simply treated the flag with respect. 

Many NFL players are involved in REAL charities and other forms of philanthropy off the field. Many of these players are making a REAL difference in the lives of others off the field. None of those legit causes are helped by the National Anthem controversy. It's a huge distraction -- and a dumb one -- driven by fear of the political correctness police in the incredibly liberal sports media.
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Chucktownsteeler
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#35
10-22-2017, 05:36 AM

(10-22-2017, 05:10 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(10-22-2017, 04:20 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: How does anything in the last two pages (including by ne, unfortunately) address the original problem I had with dbs' statement that the players' protests must automatically mean that they're sick with CTE, meaning that if they had fully functioning brains they wouldn't be protesting? Not only is that wrong, it implies that today's players (most of whom are black, don't forget) aren't capable of determining with a clear head when and where to voice their complaints.

Some of us recognize tongue-in-cheek comments when we see them.  Pi_wink1  There's nothing to address there. 



(10-22-2017, 04:20 AM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: Did anyone stop to think that maybe they made a conscious decision to suffer whatever financial and professional consequences may come their way in order to use their fleeting athletic stardom as a vehicle for social change? How is that not thinking clearly?

No, I don't think much thought was put into it by the overwhelming majority of players beyond their initial knee-jerk reactions on either side of the issue. If they were truly thinking this though, they would have ignored the noise coming from both sides and simply treated the flag with respect. 

Many NFL players are involved in REAL charities and other forms of philanthropy off the field. Many of these players are making a REAL difference in the lives of others off the field. None of those legit causes are helped by the National Anthem controversy. It's a huge distraction -- and a dumb one -- driven by fear of the political correctness police in the incredibly liberal sports media.

Tim - Spot on, I couldn't agree more. Although my comment wasn't tongue in cheek, it was a very, very true observation. NFL sales (at least in this area) have plummeted and I believe merchandise sales (or lack there-of) will be the first and most significant pain felt by the N.F.L.


    Next - Minkah, #39!
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(This post was last modified: 10-22-2017, 05:38 AM by Chucktownsteeler.)
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Garrett Garlits
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#36
10-22-2017, 04:58 PM

If it was tongue-in-cheek (and I don't believe it was for a second), it wasn't funny at all. How sick do you have to be to make fun of a disease like CTE? And regardless of that, there have been racist comments about the brainpower or lack thereof of black players for years. They weren't smart enough to be quarterbacks, were best used as pure athletes in positions like wide receiver which supposedly didn't require thinking, etc.

Those of you who are against the players may not consider yourselves racists, but you sure sound like racists when you make comments such as this.
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mcmillenandwife
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#37
10-22-2017, 06:32 PM

(10-22-2017, 04:58 PM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: If it was tongue-in-cheek (and I don't believe it was for a second), it wasn't funny at all. How sick do you have to be to make fun of a disease like CTE? And regardless of that, there have been racist comments about the brainpower or lack thereof of black players for years. They weren't smart enough to be quarterbacks, were best used as pure athletes in positions like wide receiver which supposedly didn't require thinking, etc.

Those of you who are against the players may not consider yourselves racists, but you sure sound like racists when you make comments such as this.


Wait... so CTE is influenced by race?  Pi_shocked  No, it's not. So please, STFU and stop trivializing real racism. No one on this board has made racists comments because if they had, I would ban them. Guys like you find ways to manufacture "racism" in the comments of others so you can jump on your imaginary moral high horse and wag your finger, patting yourself on the back for being so "enlightened" as you do so, all in an effort to shut down differing opinions. 

Garrett, I have no patience for that bullshit. None. If you see an ACTUAL racist comment, please point it out because that person will be banned from this message board. Racist or bigoted comments are against the code of conduct. Otherwise, stop slinging mud and labeling decent people as "racist" just because you disagree with them. That kind of behavior (insinuating that I am somehow racist or Dave is some kind of bigot because we  dare to disagree with taking a knee during the National Anthem) is disgusting. It's also the sign of a weak argument. 

Now that you've labeled us as racists, comparisons to Hitler can't be far behind...  Eyes

If you're incapable of expressing your viewpoint without assassinating the character of folks who disagree with you, please just go away. If you stay, you should apologize.
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Garrett Garlits
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#38
10-22-2017, 09:53 PM

I've read my statement over at least five times, and I can't see where I said or even hinted that CTE was influenced by race. My stuff about CTE was one comment, the things I said about the stereotypes of black football players was a related but separate comment.

As for assassinating characters, what am I supposed to call people who don't think that a group of people who are predominantly black are capable of rational thought? Just because you don't use epithets like the N word doesn't mean that your thoughts aren't prejudiced against blacks or other minority groups. Most people these days are smart enough not to use epithets, but their racism comes through in what they DO say. And to me, saying that any player who protests the national anthem must have CTE in a situation where most of the players in the NFL are black constitutes a racist statement, even though there are white players involved as well. Period. Calling Dave out on these statements WAS and IS my viewpoint. There will be NO apology to him.

This looks like my last post, since I refused to apologize. That's too bad; I thought our mutual fandom and the power of the black and gold would transcend political differences in the end. Boy, was I wrong.
(This post was last modified: 10-22-2017, 09:58 PM by Garrett Garlits.)
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mcmillenandwife
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#39
10-23-2017, 04:57 AM

(10-22-2017, 09:53 PM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: As for assassinating characters, what am I supposed to call people who don't think that a group of people who are predominantly black are capable of rational thought? Just because you don't use epithets like the N word doesn't mean that your thoughts aren't prejudiced against blacks or other minority groups. Most people these days are smart enough not to use epithets, but their racism comes through in what they DO say. 

It has nothing to do with race. If you're respecting the flag/country/military by standing for the anthem, props to you, regardless of race, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation. If you're kneeling, shame on you, regardless of race, religion, etc. Get it? 

It's about ideas, not race. Period. 

A perfect example is the meme of James Harrison basically saying he'd kick the ass of any teammate who knelt during the Anthem. The meme is bogus; Harrison never said it and he's rather wisely chosen to simply stay out of the fray rather than play the fool to either side of the issue. But I've seen that meme re-posted countless times by people who are 100% behind Harrison -- who is obviously black -- because they agree with the idea expressed in the meme. Obviously, the fact that Harrison is black isn't a negative for these folks; if anything, it's the opposite because it perhaps adds gravitas to the sentiment. 

Again... ideas, not race. 



(10-22-2017, 09:53 PM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: I've read my statement over at least five times, and I can't see where I said or even hinted that CTE was influenced by race. My stuff about CTE was one comment, the things I said about the stereotypes of black football players was a related but separate comment.

Right. There is no known link between CTE and race. Yet you were very obviously, very irresponsibly linking Dave's CTE statement to his supposed "racism" and you have no business calling him or anyone else on this board a "racist." Unfair and irresponsible. Beyond that, I'm confident careful scrutiny of your views would reveal you have your own set of biases, so get down off your judgmental high horse. 



(10-22-2017, 09:53 PM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: And to me, saying that any player who protests the national anthem must have CTE in a situation where most of the players in the NFL are black constitutes a racist statement, even though there are white players involved as well. Period. Calling Dave out on these statements WAS and IS my viewpoint. There will be NO apology to him. 

This looks like my last post, since I refused to apologize. That's too bad; I thought our mutual fandom and the power of the black and gold would transcend political differences in the end. Boy, was I wrong.

If there's a race issue here, I'd say it's yours because I'm not looking at this issue through the prism of skin color; I'm looking at it as do you show proper respect to your country during the National Anthem or don't you? 

As for you apology, I took the Roger Goodell approach; I said you "should" apologize. I didn't mandate it. It's your call. But if you don't apologize, that says more about your issues than Dave or anyone else here that you've unfairly labeled as racist. 

I'm done with this subject.  Pi_hippie
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sandfan
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#40
10-23-2017, 09:21 PM

Can't prove these photos are accurate. Don't watch anymore so I have no personal perspective. Not surprised nfl items are already on sale.

I continue to feel the social justice protest is wrong and it looks like I'm not alone.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/10/...-7-photos/
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RaynorShyne
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#41
10-24-2017, 12:37 AM

(10-21-2017, 09:13 PM)Garrett Garlits Wrote: Some of you flag wavers and military kiss-asses will do anything to discredit the players, won't you? Now they're mentally ill because they dared to disrespect your precious piece of cloth? Get real.

Listen, I'm as proud of my country as the next guy, except if that next guy happens to be some of you. You don't respect the flag like normal Americans do; you wrap yourself up in it like a cocoon and pull it up over your heads so you don't have to hear and understand points of view that may be different from yours. You're exactly the type of people who will keep the protests going, because players will kneel, sit, lock arms, or anything else they have to do to avoid following your directions. I know I would, even if it cost me money.

Remember, it was Trump and his idiotic "They should be fired!" routine that inflamed this whole thing in the first place. There were people protesting before that, but he made it a personal challenge that they felt they had to meet just to prove to the world that they didn't agree with him. And he's still opening his mouth, to the point where Shad Khan, the owner of the Jaguars, has dismissed this whole thing as Trump's way of showing his anger at not being allowed to buy the Buffalo Bills a few years ago. The sad thing is, that's the most reasonable explanation of his behavior yet. If he was really concerned about seeming Presidential, he'd have been off Twitter since the day he was elected except for official tweets from the White House (which has an account for that purpose).

The league is handling this exactly the right way. They know perfectly well that to frame this as an employer-employee issue of compliance would be the death of the league, because the players would most likely defy them just to see how they would react. They (the owners) would either have to make a spectacle of themselves by forfeiting games in front of an occupied stadium due to mass suspensions or back down and allow the protests anyway. There's no way they can win this fight, so why wage it in the first place?

The players have the upper hand, because without their services, how can the owners make money on Sunday afternoons, even if attendance is down? Do you want  less than full stadiums and mediocre ratings or empty stadiums and no ratings at all? Those are their only two choices under the current climate, and they're correctly choosing to make less money for a time instead of none at all. They know that the flag wavers and military kiss-asses that I mentioned above will be back eventually; they're some of the worst NFL addicts out there, and they're hooked, whether they'll admit it in public or not.

Some of you on this board already admit to following box scores and such even though you're not watching the games, so how committed are you to your so-called "principles", anyway? You're just pissed off because your favorite entertainers aren't behaving the way you think they should. Well, guess what? There's no law that says they have to, so shut the hell up and deal with it.

"Some of you flag wavers and military kiss-asses will do anything to discredit the players, won't you? Now they're mentally ill because they dared to disrespect your precious piece of cloth? Get real."

(Previously posted on 10-3-17 "Ben's Last Statement"21 years, Army Retired.  Current Sr-Vice Commander of my VFW post.  There's a thing called patriotism.  There's a thing called "Americanism".   The idea of an entertainment organization that professes to support the military (http://www.nfl.com/salute) and routinely does a good job at doing so, would allow it's employees to conduct such a protest at a time the United States is still in a shooting war, irks the living shit out of me.  ...So - my 'beef' is not with the individuals - it's with the league.  The reaction isn't knee jerk.  I can happily disagree with an individual - that's my right.  The idea that everything behind that NFL shield supports the position of disrespecting the flag that I've wrapped my soldiers in?  That I have an issue with."

You, my friend, are taking this a bit too personal.  

One of the wonderful things about the NFL is the brand.  It's not about the players.  10 years from now, damn few of the players on the field are still going to be playing.  IT's the league and how the entire thing has been handled.  It's a mess.  The NFL is GOING to have to deal with it because it AFFECTS BUSINESS.    From a cold business perspective, to hell with the players.  Next April there'll be an entire new crop wanting to take their place.  Do you really think Imma-Need-17 gives a crap about owners or fans?  

"NFL ratings continue fall, latest Nielsen numbers show"
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21056998/nfl-ratings-75-percent-week-6-2017-compared-2016

Key line: "In the past week, Credit Suisse lowered its price targets on both Fox and CBS stock, citing NFL ratings declines.  "If ratings don't improve materially, we see a potential headwind to domestic advertising revenues," the investment bank's analyst Omar Sheikh wrote of Fox on Thursday."

...and although there's a law that says they should  (http://s675307413.onlinehome.us/showthread.php?tid=804) it does not say they 'shall'.  

So, the President aside, the core issue is about showing pride in the flag.  With my upbringing and adult life spent defending Duty, Honor, and Country I will continue to be a "flag wavers and military kiss-ass".  

There's an old piece by Charles M. Province that I think pertains:

“It is the Soldier, not the minister
Who has given us freedom of religion.
It is the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the Soldier, not the poet
Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer
Who has given us freedom to protest.
It is the Soldier, not the lawyer
Who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the Soldier, not the politician
Who has given us the right to vote.
It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.”
(This post was last modified: 10-24-2017, 12:39 AM by RaynorShyne.)
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sandfan
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#42
10-24-2017, 01:13 AM

I read the news. If some of it happens to be about the nfl and the issue, so be it. I make no conscious effort otherwise. Please don't read anything more into my posts. I assure you my interest level in the Steelers and the nfl in general has waned. Pretty damning stuff, at least in my view, for someone who grew up in the Burgh and held season tickets for a couple of decades.

I stay semi connected to this board because I've enjoyed doing so in the past. However, some of the more personal attacks might discourage that as well. It's enjoyable to spend Sunday helping my son with his business or hitting the links or the beach vs squatting on my sofa or a bar stool to watch the nfl. Never thought I'd go there but I always vote my wallet.

I don't believe the President started this crap show. That has to be laid directly at the feet of the players. The onus for the continued issue lies there as well. The players may have the upper hand short term. However, they are merely paid performers and future contracts might prove them to be little more than paper tigers. I would not shed a tear if they killed their golden goose.
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RaynorShyne
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#43
10-27-2017, 04:02 AM

The NFL's once-golden network TV numbers continue to drop.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/nfl...xtn994edwr

"NFL games averaged 15.1 million viewers through Week 7, according to Nielsen data obtained by Sporting News. That's down 5.1 percent from 15.87 million viewers during the same period last season and off 18.7 percent from 18.35 million viewers during the same period in 2015."
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dbsfgyd1
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#44
10-27-2017, 09:20 AM

(10-27-2017, 04:02 AM)RaynorShyne Wrote: The NFL's once-golden network TV numbers continue to drop.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/nfl...xtn994edwr

"NFL games averaged 15.1 million viewers through Week 7, according to Nielsen data obtained by Sporting News. That's down 5.1 percent from 15.87 million viewers during the same period last season and off 18.7 percent from 18.35 million viewers during the same period in 2015."

Think of this, the TV contract is going to expire. I’m not sure what the the overall contract value was, but If current trends continue, it’s going to be a whopping pay cut. Make no mistake, teams counting on a continually escalating sal-cap, are going to be in serious trouble. In the short term, players looking for fat long term contracts that transcend the tv contract are going to be sorely disappointed. Actions DO have consequences.
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Chucktownsteeler
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#45
10-28-2017, 01:51 AM

(10-27-2017, 09:20 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote:  Actions DO have consequences.

Truer words were never spoken.


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Krunch
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#46
10-30-2017, 02:15 AM

Steelers on National TV tonight that I will receive it here in North Idaho.  Normally, I would have a game day meal planned out, my Steelers stuff laid out and be antsy for the kickoff.  However  my stand on my principals continues.  I will not be watching the game.  I still am not, nor will support this 2017 Team of Tunnel Rats.  Surprisingly, I have not misssed watching NFL games this year.  I do catch up afterwards on the internet and here on the board.

I plan on returning to the tube in 2018, unless the players do something else to cause me to lose my support.  I am hopeful that their own stand on principals will dissipate when it comes to their National Anthem protests.  

I'm not looking for support or expect anyone else to change their own point of view.  Just telling it like it is in my world.  From my perspective on how I was raised, how I raised my kids and how I behave while at work as a representative of the company that pays my salary and to the customers of my firm.  And, oh yeah, as a veteran myself.... Well, that perspective should not require any explanation.

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(This post was last modified: 10-30-2017, 02:24 AM by Krunch.)
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