Lake's Take ... A Referendum on Tomlin
Rollers
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#31
12-14-2017, 12:56 AM

(12-14-2017, 12:33 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote:
(12-13-2017, 10:25 PM)Rollers Wrote:
(12-13-2017, 02:22 PM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote:
(12-13-2017, 10:56 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote:
(12-12-2017, 02:51 PM)The Lakelander Wrote: Tomlin seems to have EVERY ADVANTAGE !!! 

NO EXCUSES, PAL !!!  Wavehello


I kinda feel sorry for you, Lake. You're so heavily entrenched in your anti-Tomlin line of thought that I suspect you'll actually be bummed if we win.

32 teams in the league each with the same goal, a draft that favors the downtrodden and here we are with the best record we’ve had since 2004, and our coach isn’t good enough... sheesh.

They should be Cleveland fans. That way they can get a new coach every year to hate. An unlimited supply.
First it's not about hating a coach.  It's about winning a superbowl.  The Steelers aren't cleveland and are NOT judged on the same basis of results as Cleveland or any other crappy organization in the NFL.  See this is the part I don't get.  We're happy getting close.  We're happy having a winning season.  It's all good.  Have to get to the playoffs to compete for a superbowl.  It's about the talent you have on your team and is that talent being utilitzed to the best of it's ability. THAT'S the standard.  And by that standard we certainly aren't performing like we need to.  I don't know how else to explain it.  It looks like the offense has finally come around.  So I guess we can try and outscore everyone we play?  The standard is winning a super bowl.  Just like all the teams.  We are pissing away Ben's career.  What if he retires this year?  Who is going to play QB next year?  Landry?  I want you to picture this defense with Landry at QB.  That's where we are if Ben hangs it up and I think there's every chance he will.  I think he's had enough.  One more great year to go out on and we can congratulate ourselves on making the playoffs.  db it's about super bowls when your the Steelers.  Not the regular season not the record it's about winning the big one.  When was the last time that happened?  I would be happy with a losing record if we were in the midst of rebuilding.  Point of fact we've found some pretty good players drafting in a draft that favors the downtrodden.  The draft actually favors those that can evaluate talent that fit their scheme at the point they are drafting.  If the draft favored the downtrodden the Browns would be undefeated.  I agree with what Lake has said.  NO EXCUSES this year.  Great record. We could actually have home field advantage all the way through the playoffs and this defense scares the hell out of me.  Now Shazier is gone?  NO EXCUSES this year.  What's wrong with expecting a super bowl this year?  In my opinion Tomlin has sat on his hands watching the special teams fail, watching the defense fail.  Why?  Just think about that scenario I put forward.  No Ben next year, Landry at QB and this defense on the field.  That should scare any of us.
Well, if winning the Super Bowl is the only basis for determining if your coach is worth a crap,  based on this logic there should be 31 unemployed coaches every February.

As for the Browns, the difference isn’t talent, all teams have talent. The difference is the quality of player development and systems in place. And how does that happen pray tell? Sounds to me like we got a pretty good coaching staff, or we would have a record like the Browns.

I'm done talking with you db.  Just done.  what the hell does a firing a coach EVER single year if they don't win a superbowl have to do with anything.  Where did I say that?  Been nice.
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dbsfgyd1
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#32
12-14-2017, 01:55 AM

(12-14-2017, 12:56 AM)Rollers Wrote:
(12-14-2017, 12:33 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote:
(12-13-2017, 10:25 PM)Rollers Wrote:
(12-13-2017, 02:22 PM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote:
(12-13-2017, 10:56 AM)mcmillenandwife Wrote: I kinda feel sorry for you, Lake. You're so heavily entrenched in your anti-Tomlin line of thought that I suspect you'll actually be bummed if we win.

32 teams in the league each with the same goal, a draft that favors the downtrodden and here we are with the best record we’ve had since 2004, and our coach isn’t good enough... sheesh.

They should be Cleveland fans. That way they can get a new coach every year to hate. An unlimited supply.
First it's not about hating a coach.  It's about winning a superbowl.  The Steelers aren't cleveland and are NOT judged on the same basis of results as Cleveland or any other crappy organization in the NFL.  See this is the part I don't get.  We're happy getting close.  We're happy having a winning season.  It's all good.  Have to get to the playoffs to compete for a superbowl.  It's about the talent you have on your team and is that talent being utilitzed to the best of it's ability. THAT'S the standard.  And by that standard we certainly aren't performing like we need to.  I don't know how else to explain it.  It looks like the offense has finally come around.  So I guess we can try and outscore everyone we play?  The standard is winning a super bowl.  Just like all the teams.  We are pissing away Ben's career.  What if he retires this year?  Who is going to play QB next year?  Landry?  I want you to picture this defense with Landry at QB.  That's where we are if Ben hangs it up and I think there's every chance he will.  I think he's had enough.  One more great year to go out on and we can congratulate ourselves on making the playoffs.  db it's about super bowls when your the Steelers.  Not the regular season not the record it's about winning the big one.  When was the last time that happened?  I would be happy with a losing record if we were in the midst of rebuilding.  Point of fact we've found some pretty good players drafting in a draft that favors the downtrodden.  The draft actually favors those that can evaluate talent that fit their scheme at the point they are drafting.  If the draft favored the downtrodden the Browns would be undefeated.  I agree with what Lake has said.  NO EXCUSES this year.  Great record. We could actually have home field advantage all the way through the playoffs and this defense scares the hell out of me.  Now Shazier is gone?  NO EXCUSES this year.  What's wrong with expecting a super bowl this year?  In my opinion Tomlin has sat on his hands watching the special teams fail, watching the defense fail.  Why?  Just think about that scenario I put forward.  No Ben next year, Landry at QB and this defense on the field.  That should scare any of us.
Well, if winning the Super Bowl is the only basis for determining if your coach is worth a crap,  based on this logic there should be 31 unemployed coaches every February.

As for the Browns, the difference isn’t talent, all teams have talent. The difference is the quality of player development and systems in place. And how does that happen pray tell? Sounds to me like we got a pretty good coaching staff, or we would have a record like the Browns.

I'm done talking with you db.  Just done.  what the hell does a firing a coach EVER single year if they don't win a superbowl have to do with anything.  Where did I say that?  Been nice.

You have been doggin’ this coaching staff for over 10 years, and frankly, I don’t get it. Most experts rate his work as one of  the best coaches in the game. Ownerships is certainly happy with his work. Most teams in this league would be thrilled to have him. I just don’t understand all of the negativity and venom from Steeler Nation directed at this guy, and not just on this site. I’m sorry if I’ve offended.
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The Lakelander
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#33
12-15-2017, 08:31 AM

(12-14-2017, 12:33 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: As for the Browns, the difference isn’t talent, all teams have talent. The difference is the quality of player development and systems in place. And how does that happen pray tell? Sounds to me like we got a pretty good coaching staff, or we would have a record like the Browns.

Again DB is just not paying much attention ... Cleveland's new GM just came out publically and SLAMMED Sashi Brown's personnel choices. Seems it IS about talent in Cleveland and they are 0 and forever BECAUSE they have no talent. 

Tomlin HAS talented players. HIS problem is he has no clue how to develop them. Artie Burns clearly has NOT progressed since his rookie season ... in four (4) more starts already this season Burns has 3 less INT's (NONE to be certain), 12 less tackles, and he merely has 4 assists. The guy hasn't grown one c*nt hair better ...

Sean Davis's stats are just about even keeled with his stats last season ... Davis should be taking a major leap this season based on his solid rookie play, but it seems he's already peaked ... 

Bud Dupree ... are you kidding me? He's not much better than Jarvis Jones at this time ... Clark Haggans was getting in excess of 60 combined tackles/assists from the LOLB position in Pittsburgh's defense under Bill Cowher ... Dupree has roughly HALF that much production with 4 games left ... He's been invisible now for 2 straight weeks and has seven (7) games this season with 1 or fewer tackles ... just a sad statement on Tomlin frankly ...

Big Grin Super Bowl or Bust !!! ... (I'm guessing "Bust") ... but hey ... 
(This post was last modified: 12-15-2017, 08:52 AM by The Lakelander.)
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Rollers
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#34
12-15-2017, 09:11 AM

(12-15-2017, 08:31 AM)The Lakelander Wrote:
(12-14-2017, 12:33 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: As for the Browns, the difference isn’t talent, all teams have talent. The difference is the quality of player development and systems in place. And how does that happen pray tell? Sounds to me like we got a pretty good coaching staff, or we would have a record like the Browns.

Again DB is just not paying much attention ... Cleveland's new GM just came out publically and SLAMMED Sashi Brown's personnel choices. Seems it IS about talent in Cleveland and they are 0 and forever BECAUSE they have no talent. 

Tomlin HAS talented players. HIS problem is he has no clue how to develop them. Artie Burns clearly has NOT progressed since his rookie season ... in four (4) more starts already this season Burns has 3 less INT's (NONE to be certain), 12 less tackles, and he merely has 4 assists. The guy hasn't grown one c*nt hair better ...

Sean Davis's stats are just about even keeled with his stats last season ... Davis should be taking a major leap this season based on his solid rookie play, but it seems he's already peaked ... 

Bud Dupree ... are you kidding me? He's not much better than Jarvis Jones at this time ... Clark Haggans was getting in excess of 60 combined tackles/assists from the LOLB position in Pittsburgh's defense under Bill Cowher ... Dupree has roughly HALF that much production with 4 games left ... He's been invisible now for 2 straight weeks and has seven (7) games this season with 1 or fewer tackles ... just a sad statement on Tomlin frankly ...

dupree keeps running up the arc
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The Lakelander
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#35
12-16-2017, 01:15 AM

Tomlin can go a long way towards silencing his legions of critics Sunday afternoon ... or ... creating a landslide of new haters ... Hey DB, this game may not be big in your mind. After all, the Steelers clinched a playoff spot already and they have a history of being able to win playoff games on the road with Big Ben. And so one can be complacent in believing they can take that route successfully again. But you are drastically underestimating the importance of having home field advantage in PITTSBURGH ... Heinz Field ... the playoff level tailgate environment ... rowdy and drunken screaming fans in the north endzone when New England is in our Red Zone ... the Terrible Towel ...

Sunday's game matters BIG TIME, and a Steelers loss at home to the very beatable New England Patriots would rank as one of the team's all-time BIGGEST disappointments ... especially given that Big Ben's clock is very near to striking midnight ...

This game absolutely will be a referendum on Mike Tomlin if the Steelers lose ... He'd be facing scrutiny like never before, publically and throughout the mainstream media ... and likewise, Tomlin would solidify his status as a viable head coach if he should win this game and secure for Pittsburgh home field playoff advantage and re-mystify the "Road to the Super Bowl runs through Pittsburgh" myth ...

Big Grin Super Bowl or Bust !!! ... (I'm guessing "Bust") ... but hey ... 
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mcmillenandwife
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#36
12-16-2017, 03:24 AM

(12-16-2017, 01:15 AM)The Lakelander Wrote:  ... and likewise, Tomlin would solidify his status as a viable head coach ...

Lake, why do constantly you do this?  Laugh  I'm reading along, agreeing with some of what you say, disagreeing with some of it, but appreciating the thought that went into it either way... and then you drop a bomb from the Twilight Zone such as suggesting that Tomlin's status as a "viable" head coach might need a little propping up. Laugh

Somehow, I don't think Tomlin's "viability" is in question anywhere other than in the minds of a handful of internet crazies who, deep down inside, somehow they believe they can do it better because they once coached a group of 5th-graders to a flag football championship.  Laugh

Razzing aside, I do agree with you that this game is of tremendous importance. It will establish the pecking order in the playoffs, and like you, I like our chances MUCH better if the playoffs go through Pittsburgh. I also think the psychology of beating the Patriots will be huge. 

But beyond that... it's just another regular season game. Important... but not as important as sweeping the Ravens with our win last week, which to me was the single biggest game of the regular season. 

I will say this: The dramatic nature of this season -- with all the close wins and struggles and comebacks and adversity -- has frazzled my nerves a bit.  Laugh I find I'm generally in the midst of a complete meltdown only a few minutes into the first quarter. The poor dog won't come near me during a game, even if there's food around. I'm generally a very calm, quiet, reserved person... until kickoff. He just looks at me like I've lost my mind and goes upstairs. 

[Image: miles_office.jpg]
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The Lakelander
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#37
12-16-2017, 04:06 AM

I'm not sure who's worse Tim ... the "internet crazies" ... ??? ... or the "nuthuggers" ... ???

Big Grin Super Bowl or Bust !!! ... (I'm guessing "Bust") ... but hey ... 
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The Lakelander
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#38
12-16-2017, 04:08 AM

And no, it's really NOT just another regular season game. If you're there you've quite honestly lost your perspective Tim.

Big Grin Super Bowl or Bust !!! ... (I'm guessing "Bust") ... but hey ... 
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SimplySonder
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#39
12-16-2017, 04:25 AM

I mean Tomlin has 0% chance of getting fired so this is really all in the minds of the fans. That being said who would you look to replace him with? The man is 122-65, has never had a losing season AND has a ring on top of that? I'd bet that at least like 25 teams would trade their coaches for Tomlin.
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The Lakelander
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#40
12-16-2017, 05:11 AM

(12-16-2017, 04:25 AM)SimplySonder Wrote: I mean Tomlin has 0% chance of getting fired so this is really all in the minds of the fans. That being said who would you look to replace him with? The man is 122-65, has never had a losing season AND has a ring on top of that? I'd bet that at least like 25 teams would trade their coaches for Tomlin.

This is the same argument the "nuthuggers" proffer ... "Who would you hire?" yada yada ... as though there aren't 18 or 20 OTHER head coach candidates who could have come into Pittsburgh's highly stable and reputable management and front office system, team system, and generous fan and media support system and found success ...

Tell me, had the Steelers hired, say, Ron Rivera back when Cowher retired (or Russ Grimm, Bruce Arians, Abe Vigoda, Fred Sanford, Jesse Jackson), would Rivera been able to amass a similar career record as Tomlin, having Big Ben as his primed and peeking quarterback, Dick LeBeau as his defensive coordinator, and any one of a dozen or so capable offensive coordinators running the Steelers offense?

Big Grin Super Bowl or Bust !!! ... (I'm guessing "Bust") ... but hey ... 
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The Lakelander
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#41
12-16-2017, 05:17 AM

I'm pretty certain Tomlin will see some serious heat across Steelers Nation with a loss at home on Sunday ... the national NFL media will have a field day at Tomlin's expense come Monday if the Steelers can't win on Sunday ...

And it's ENTIRELY un-Steeler-like for ANY Steelers fans to continue a soft stance on Tomlin at that juncture ... he has NO EXCUSES any more ... NONE !!!

Big Grin Super Bowl or Bust !!! ... (I'm guessing "Bust") ... but hey ... 
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SteelThePain82
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#42
12-16-2017, 05:51 AM

(12-16-2017, 04:25 AM)SimplySonder Wrote: I mean Tomlin has 0% chance of getting fired so this is really all in the minds of the fans. That being said who would you look to replace him with? The man is 122-65, has never had a losing season AND has a ring on top of that? I'd bet that at least like 25 teams would trade their coaches for Tomlin.

Did you not read ANY of the rest of this thread?

The trademark of a good coach falls on the production they’re able to get from the talent they have at their disposal.

That said, Tomlin has:
-The Best RB in the game
-the Best WR in the game
-a 2 x Super Bowl winning QB
-the best rookie WR this year
-a pair of promising DBs in their sophomore season that SHOULD be making strides of improvement
-solid offensive and defensive lines

Yet with ALL of this abundance of ammunition they are ranked:

22nd in Redzone Defense
25th in Redzone Offense
17th in Turnovers
21st in Penalties per game

Now you can try and argue that they’re ranked top 10 for total offense and defense but with ALL of the above mentioned - THEY SHOULD BE!!

The 4 stats that I CHOSE to highlight are a DIRECT correlation to coaching and discipline!

This and evidence cited by Lake, Rollers, and others would point to Tomlin and Company having a deficiency in their abilities to develop and discipline talent and efficiently strategize how to use them in critical game situations.

I have no delusions about Tomlin losing his job anytime soon.
My dislike of him is not personal.
I sincerely hope he proves me wrong this Sunday and gives ALL of Steeler Nation an early Christmas present!
But the track record against New England is NOT promising.
If Tomlin comes out and tries to play Zone Defense as he’s done in the past, stubbornly refusing to switch up to man-to-man, I cannot see us coming away with a victory.

But then again, ANYTHING can happen! Pi_clover
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#43
12-16-2017, 06:25 AM

(12-16-2017, 05:11 AM)The Lakelander Wrote:
(12-16-2017, 04:25 AM)SimplySonder Wrote: I mean Tomlin has 0% chance of getting fired so this is really all in the minds of the fans. That being said who would you look to replace him with? The man is 122-65, has never had a losing season AND has a ring on top of that? I'd bet that at least like 25 teams would trade their coaches for Tomlin.

This is the same argument the "nuthuggers" proffer ... "Who would you hire?" yada yada ... as though there aren't 18 or 20 OTHER head coach candidates who could have come into Pittsburgh's highly stable and reputable management and front office system, team system, and generous fan and media support system and found success ...

Tell me, had the Steelers hired, say, Ron Rivera back when Cowher retired (or Russ Grimm, Bruce Arians, Abe Vigoda, Fred Sanford, Jesse Jackson), would Rivera been able to amass a similar career record as Tomlin, having Big Ben as his primed and peeking quarterback, Dick LeBeau as his defensive coordinator, and any one of a dozen or so capable offensive coordinators running the Steelers offense?


If you don't think looking into or at least speculating about who would replace Tomlin is a legitimate question to ask someone suggesting he be fired, I don't know what to tell you. If you honestly think there are 20 other coaches that could have replicated Tomlins success during his tenure you are out of your mind. I have no doubt he would take a beating from the geniuses on first take and whatnot, but they could lose the next 3 games and go one and done in the playoffs and he would still be in no danger of being fired whatsoever. 
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#44
12-16-2017, 06:29 AM

(12-16-2017, 05:51 AM)SteelThePain82 Wrote:
(12-16-2017, 04:25 AM)SimplySonder Wrote: I mean Tomlin has 0% chance of getting fired so this is really all in the minds of the fans. That being said who would you look to replace him with? The man is 122-65, has never had a losing season AND has a ring on top of that? I'd bet that at least like 25 teams would trade their coaches for Tomlin.

Did you not read ANY of the rest of this thread?

The trademark of a good coach falls on the production they’re able to get from the talent they have at their disposal.

That said, Tomlin has:
-The Best RB in the game
-the Best WR in the game
-a 2 x Super Bowl winning QB
-the best rookie WR this year
-a pair of promising DBs in their sophomore season that SHOULD be making strides of improvement
-solid offensive and defensive lines

Yet with ALL of this abundance of ammunition they are ranked:

22nd in Redzone Defense
25th in Redzone Offense
17th in Turnovers
21st in Penalties per game

Now you can try and argue that they’re ranked top 10 for total offense and defense but with ALL of the above mentioned - THEY SHOULD BE!!

The 4 stats that I CHOSE to highlight are a DIRECT correlation to coaching and discipline!

This and evidence cited by Lake, Rollers, and others would point to Tomlin and Company having a deficiency in their abilities to develop and discipline talent and efficiently strategize how to use them in critical game situations.

I have no delusions about Tomlin losing his job anytime soon.
My dislike of him is not personal.
I sincerely hope he proves me wrong this Sunday and gives ALL of Steeler Nation an early Christmas present!
But the track record against New England is NOT promising.
If Tomlin comes out and tries to play Zone Defense as he’s done in the past, stubbornly refusing to switch up to man-to-man, I cannot see us coming away with a victory.

But then again, ANYTHING can happen! Pi_clover


I read the entire thread actually. The production Tomlin has yielded this season is 11 wins, 2 losses. Not sure why you think something like Redzone offense falls solely on Tomlin when Haley is the one calling the plays and the players are the ones executing (or not executing) them. You guys are right though it's just a magic fix Tomlin refuses to see and if we just played more man last year we would've won the AFCG. Give me break. You guys keep talking about 'What's Tomlins excuse' The reality is he doesn't need one. His production during his career doesn't warrant an excuse especially not to some delusional yinzers on the internet that think your whole merit as a coach is determined by your ability to beat the Patriots. 
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The Lakelander
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#45
12-16-2017, 06:51 AM

(12-16-2017, 06:29 AM)SimplySonder Wrote: [quote pid='7435' dateline='1513367513']
I read the entire thread actually. The production Tomlin has yielded this season is 11 wins, 2 losses. Not sure why you think something like Redzone offense falls solely on Tomlin when Haley is the one calling the plays and the players are the ones executing (or not executing) them. You guys are right though it's just a magic fix Tomlin refuses to see and if we just played more man last year we would've won the AFCG. Give me break. You guys keep talking about 'What's Tomlins excuse' The reality is he doesn't need one. His production during his career doesn't warrant an excuse especially not to some delusional yinzers on the internet that think your whole merit as a coach is determined by your ability to beat the Patriots. 

[/quote]

Lol  ... What I can't STAND about the Tomlin apologists is that the only thing that has come to matter any more is having a winning record ... a winning "career" ... Winning Super Bowls? ... passe. It simply means nothing any more. It's the "participation trophy" mentality that Steelers Nation has become complacent with owning ... the "gee if only Tomlin would have played more man coverage" BS! ... 

Sunday is the biggest game of the season. It means a ton towards gaining home field advantage. It means, beyond that, a whole lot more to a whole lot of fans, players, media, and football minds ... 

Tomlin doesn't need any excuses ... you are right. He needs to WIN !!! Winning doesn't REQUIRE any excuses. Losing DOES !!! 

Yinzer? Aren't we ALL? Some of us still care about the Steelers winning Super Bowls and NEVER grow tired of it's appeal ...

Big Grin Super Bowl or Bust !!! ... (I'm guessing "Bust") ... but hey ... 
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2017, 06:58 AM by The Lakelander.)
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SimplySonder
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#46
12-16-2017, 07:23 AM

(12-16-2017, 06:51 AM)The Lakelander Wrote:
(12-16-2017, 06:29 AM)SimplySonder Wrote: [quote pid='7435' dateline='1513367513']
I read the entire thread actually. The production Tomlin has yielded this season is 11 wins, 2 losses. Not sure why you think something like Redzone offense falls solely on Tomlin when Haley is the one calling the plays and the players are the ones executing (or not executing) them. You guys are right though it's just a magic fix Tomlin refuses to see and if we just played more man last year we would've won the AFCG. Give me break. You guys keep talking about 'What's Tomlins excuse' The reality is he doesn't need one. His production during his career doesn't warrant an excuse especially not to some delusional yinzers on the internet that think your whole merit as a coach is determined by your ability to beat the Patriots. 

Lol  ... What I can't STAND about the Tomlin apologists is that the only thing that has come to matter any more is having a winning record ... a winning "career" ... Winning Super Bowls? ... passe. It simply means nothing any more. It's the "participation trophy" mentality that Steelers Nation has become complacent with owning ... the "gee if only Tomlin would have played more man coverage" BS! ... 

Sunday is the biggest game of the season. It means a ton towards gaining home field advantage. It means, beyond that, a whole lot more to a whole lot of fans, players, media, and football minds ... 

Tomlin doesn't need any excuses ... you are right. He needs to WIN !!! Winning doesn't REQUIRE any excuses. Losing DOES !!! 

Yinzer? Aren't we ALL? Some of us still care about the Steelers winning Super Bowls and NEVER grow tired of it's appeal ...
[/quote]


But Tomlin has won a superbowl... in 10 years he has won 1 SB and lost 1 SB, in 15 years Cowher won 1 and lost 1 as well. Only 1 team can win it every year and they've been contenders almost every year of Tomlins tenure, that's what I care about. I agree it is the biggest game of the season it just annoys me how people act like cause Tomlin has struggled against the pats that makes him a bad coach, everyone struggles against them they are one of the best dynastys in history.
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2017, 07:24 AM by SimplySonder.)
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SteelThePain82
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#47
12-16-2017, 07:41 AM

(12-16-2017, 06:29 AM)SimplySonder Wrote:
(12-16-2017, 05:51 AM)SteelThePain82 Wrote:
(12-16-2017, 04:25 AM)SimplySonder Wrote: I mean Tomlin has 0% chance of getting fired so this is really all in the minds of the fans. That being said who would you look to replace him with? The man is 122-65, has never had a losing season AND has a ring on top of that? I'd bet that at least like 25 teams would trade their coaches for Tomlin.

Did you not read ANY of the rest of this thread?

The trademark of a good coach falls on the production they’re able to get from the talent they have at their disposal.

That said, Tomlin has:
-The Best RB in the game
-the Best WR in the game
-a 2 x Super Bowl winning QB
-the best rookie WR this year
-a pair of promising DBs in their sophomore season that SHOULD be making strides of improvement
-solid offensive and defensive lines

Yet with ALL of this abundance of ammunition they are ranked:

22nd in Redzone Defense
25th in Redzone Offense
17th in Turnovers
21st in Penalties per game

Now you can try and argue that they’re ranked top 10 for total offense and defense but with ALL of the above mentioned - THEY SHOULD BE!!

The 4 stats that I CHOSE to highlight are a DIRECT correlation to coaching and discipline!

This and evidence cited by Lake, Rollers, and others would point to Tomlin and Company having a deficiency in their abilities to develop and discipline talent and efficiently strategize how to use them in critical game situations.

I have no delusions about Tomlin losing his job anytime soon.
My dislike of him is not personal.
I sincerely hope he proves me wrong this Sunday and gives ALL of Steeler Nation an early Christmas present!
But the track record against New England is NOT promising.
If Tomlin comes out and tries to play Zone Defense as he’s done in the past, stubbornly refusing to switch up to man-to-man, I cannot see us coming away with a victory.

But then again, ANYTHING can happen! Pi_clover


I read the entire thread actually. The production Tomlin has yielded this season is 11 wins, 2 losses. Not sure why you think something like Redzone offense falls solely on Tomlin when Haley is the one calling the plays and the players are the ones executing (or not executing) them. You guys are right though it's just a magic fix Tomlin refuses to see and if we just played more man last year we would've won the AFCG. Give me break. You guys keep talking about 'What's Tomlins excuse' The reality is he doesn't need one. His production during his career doesn't warrant an excuse especially not to some delusional yinzers on the internet that think your whole merit as a coach is determined by your ability to beat the Patriots. 


What is the ultimate goal of an NFL Head Coach if NOT to Win a Super Bowl?
Hell , even Tomlin himself said that it was his goal to compete to win a Super Bowl EVERY YEAR.

So, NO, beating the Patriots is NOT the whole merit.
They just happen to be the biggest roadblock in the way of our Stairway to 7 (have been since 2010 and before for that matter.)

Does that mean every other coach who doesn’t win the Super Bowl SHOULD be fired?
OF COURSE NOT!!

As Rollers said earlier: different situations = different expectations

So again I retort:
With THIS team, this year, motivated by the memory of Dan Rooney and the honor of Ryan Shazier, what excuse is Mike Tomlin entitled to if he falls short of delivering a championship back to the Steel City?

We’ve established that his goal does not stop at:
-another winning season
-a playoff berth
-a division title
-a conference championship
-a cliche loaded press conference

The defense has been rebuilt!
The offense is armed to the teeth!
Special teams are set!

It’s time to put up or shut up!
No more excuses!

I don’t WANT to see him fail!!
But I’m not going to sit around and pretend like he deserves a free pass or absolution of all criticism if he does fail to NOT to get embarrassed by the Patriots for the umpteenth time in his career!

Anyhow, I’m not trying to jump down anyone’s throat or devolve this conversation into personal attacks.
So, I’ll leave my 2 cents as stands for now.
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The Lakelander
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#48
12-16-2017, 07:44 AM

Cowher got them there quickly in 1995. And Cowher's teams re-constituted the (legendary) toughness of the Pittsburgh Steelers. So Cowher was largely given a pass for failing to win a Super Bowl. He became a coaching victim of the infamous "Cheatriots" too, so Cowher was given a pass for not winning it in the early 2000's. When Cowher finally DID win it, it was on the wings of young Ben Roethlisberger.

Sure ... yep ... indeed ... Tomlin won a Lombardi. No denying it. But he INHERITED that Super Bowl ready team and Big Ben (and Troy) (and a really strong core group of Cowher players) did the rest ... 

Since then the Steelers defense has lost it's (legendary) toughness ... most of these kids either 1. CAN'T tackle, 2. refuse to tackle, or 3. tackle the wrong way ... It's NOTHING like it SHOULD be ... and it falls on the head coach, who gets a perennial pass because of his won/loss record and that one Super Bowl he inherited. 

Tomlin has no more excuses frankly. The team has the necessary player construct to win another Lombardi. If not now then when? Next season? The New England factor needs to be swatted out of the way. This is a massively important game in Tomlin's career on Sunday ... a referendum game frankly ...

Big Grin Super Bowl or Bust !!! ... (I'm guessing "Bust") ... but hey ... 
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Crash
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#49
12-16-2017, 08:23 AM

Don't look at our OLB's as far as sack stat sheets. They tend to waste a lot of snaps covering air.

Bud also has a bad shoulder and can barely lift his arm over his head some weeks.

What was bizarre about Jarvis Jones last season was he was finally making plays on a consistent basis, then he got demoted out of the blue.

I think he bitched about the rotation, so they sat him down.
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Crash
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#50
12-16-2017, 08:26 AM

If anyone thinks Mike Tomlin gets a free pass they obviously don't pay attention to NFL media, or fans of this team on social media.

He takes a beating.

Bill Cowher has somehow morphed into Knute Rockne since he retired. LOL
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dbsfgyd1
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#51
12-16-2017, 10:55 AM

(12-15-2017, 08:31 AM)The Lakelander Wrote:
(12-14-2017, 12:33 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: As for the Browns, the difference isn’t talent, all teams have talent. The difference is the quality of player development and systems in place. And how does that happen pray tell? Sounds to me like we got a pretty good coaching staff, or we would have a record like the Browns.

Again DB is just not paying much attention ... Cleveland's new GM just came out publically and SLAMMED Sashi Brown's personnel choices. Seems it IS about talent in Cleveland and they are 0 and forever BECAUSE they have no talent. 

Tomlin HAS talented players. HIS problem is he has no clue how to develop them. Artie Burns clearly has NOT progressed since his rookie season ... in four (4) more starts already this season Burns has 3 less INT's (NONE to be certain), 12 less tackles, and he merely has 4 assists. The guy hasn't grown one c*nt hair better ...

Sean Davis's stats are just about even keeled with his stats last season ... Davis should be taking a major leap this season based on his solid rookie play, but it seems he's already peaked ... 

Bud Dupree ... are you kidding me? He's not much better than Jarvis Jones at this time ... Clark Haggans was getting in excess of 60 combined tackles/assists from the LOLB position in Pittsburgh's defense under Bill Cowher ... Dupree has roughly HALF that much production with 4 games left ... He's been invisible now for 2 straight weeks and has seven (7) games this season with 1 or fewer tackles ... just a sad statement on Tomlin frankly ...

Mark, I’ve been paying attention, apparently you aren’t. How many GMs Cleveland gone through in the last 10 years? They have talent, what they haven’t  had is stability in coaching, the kind of stability of which obviously you place zero value. They have had a series of very highly regarded coaches  in for a cup of coffee that were not given time to make their system work. If Jacman sticks, you watch, they got some serious players there.

And while you are dumping on Steeler players, answer this, if they are so bad, so underdeveloped,  how do you explain our record? 3 guys, Ben, Bell, and Brown? That’s a pretty weak arguement. 

You know, we’re going to win this ”Referendum” Sunday, and I guarantee the first words out of you mouth is that it means nothing unless we beat the Patriots in the playoffs. Oddly, that would be the first accurate assessment  you’ve posted in a long time.
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The Lakelander
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#52
12-16-2017, 12:39 PM

(12-16-2017, 10:55 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote:
(12-15-2017, 08:31 AM)The Lakelander Wrote:
(12-14-2017, 12:33 AM)dbsfgyd1 Wrote: As for the Browns, the difference isn’t talent, all teams have talent. The difference is the quality of player development and systems in place. And how does that happen pray tell? Sounds to me like we got a pretty good coaching staff, or we would have a record like the Browns.

Again DB is just not paying much attention ... Cleveland's new GM just came out publically and SLAMMED Sashi Brown's personnel choices. Seems it IS about talent in Cleveland and they are 0 and forever BECAUSE they have no talent. 

Tomlin HAS talented players. HIS problem is he has no clue how to develop them. Artie Burns clearly has NOT progressed since his rookie season ... in four (4) more starts already this season Burns has 3 less INT's (NONE to be certain), 12 less tackles, and he merely has 4 assists. The guy hasn't grown one c*nt hair better ...

Sean Davis's stats are just about even keeled with his stats last season ... Davis should be taking a major leap this season based on his solid rookie play, but it seems he's already peaked ... 

Bud Dupree ... are you kidding me? He's not much better than Jarvis Jones at this time ... Clark Haggans was getting in excess of 60 combined tackles/assists from the LOLB position in Pittsburgh's defense under Bill Cowher ... Dupree has roughly HALF that much production with 4 games left ... He's been invisible now for 2 straight weeks and has seven (7) games this season with 1 or fewer tackles ... just a sad statement on Tomlin frankly ...

Mark, I’ve been paying attention, apparently you aren’t. How many GMs Cleveland gone through in the last 10 years? They have talent, what they haven’t  had is stability in coaching, the kind of stability of which obviously you place zero value. They have had a series of very highly regarded coaches  in for a cup of coffee that were not given time to make their system work. If Jacman sticks, you watch, they got some serious players there.

And while you are dumping on Steeler players, answer this, if they are so bad, so underdeveloped,  how do you explain our record? 3 guys, Ben, Bell, and Brown? That’s a pretty weak arguement. 

You know, we’re going to win this ”Referendum” Sunday, and I guarantee the first words out of you mouth is that it means nothing unless we beat the Patriots in the playoffs. Oddly, that would be the first accurate assessment  you’ve posted in a long time.

DB, other than the statue Flacco, who have the Steelers played at QB this season ... ??? ...

Let's take a look:

Week 1 - Kizer (rookie)*
Week 2 - Keenum*
Week 3 - Glennon*
Week 4 - Flaccid
Week 5 - Bortles
Week 6 - Smith
Week 7 - Opie Dalton
Week 8 - Stafford
Week 10 - Brissett*
Week 11 - Mariota
Week 12 - Hundley*
Week 13 - Opie Dalton
Week 14 - Flaccid

Basically they faced Smith and Stafford ... that's IT !!! 

I said long before the season started that there were maybe 4 or 5 QB's left in the NFL capable of standing in Big Ben's way this season ... Brady, Brees, Rogers, and Ryan being the serious 4. 

So 11-2 makes PERFECT sense right now. It's a QB driven league and the Pittsburgh Steelers have one of the very best. ANOTHER reason Tomlin has no excuses ... NONE! ...

We win on Sunday and my first words will be "HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE" ... and my second words will be "NO EXCUSES!" ...

Big Grin Super Bowl or Bust !!! ... (I'm guessing "Bust") ... but hey ... 
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The Lakelander
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#53
12-16-2017, 12:47 PM

... and if Tomlin should happen to win the Super Bowl this year, my first words will be "he really had to ... he had no excuses not to" ...

Big Grin Super Bowl or Bust !!! ... (I'm guessing "Bust") ... but hey ... 
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mcmillenandwife
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#54
12-16-2017, 07:22 PM

(12-16-2017, 08:26 AM)Crash Wrote: Bill Cowher has somehow morphed into Knute Rockne since he retired.  LOL

Laugh

This is SO f-ing true.  Roll
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Crash
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#55
12-16-2017, 09:01 PM

Here's the thing, if anyone told you that after 5 seasons that Mike Tomlin would win 60 games, 2 AFC titles, and a ring before he was hired would you accept that?

Of course you would.  

But Art II hired his unqualified buddy to run the offense in 2012, and things that used to matter in this organization haven't happened yet with him:

Bye weeks, AFC titles, rings.  

When the Steelers offense wins?  Haley gets the credit.

When the Steelers offense blows?  Ben and Tomlin get the heat.  Some of the vile, disgusting comments that Roethlisberger has gotten from his own fan-base on social media is a fucking sin.  I honestly don't know how he has the patience to deal with that and Haley's bullshit scheme.   

Hate to break it to you Tomlin haters, but if he gets fired? Todd Haley is our next coach.

Do you REALLY want that to happen?

Tomlin isn't without fault, his clock management is awful, just like last week, that's his biggest issue as a coach.

But for Art II to pull rank on him after 2011 and hire his pal against Tomlin's preferred choice (s) is on Art II, not Tomlin.  

I don't give a fuck about regular season stats, if they don't win the AFC this season and Haley's offense does it's usual post season shit show?  Haley has to go, and Fichtner deserves his shot.  With or without Ben.  If they don't win the AFC and Haley is replaced by Fichtner for whatever reason I think Ben plays on, simply to try and prove the point that Haley's ego and idiocy is what was holding this offense and the team back.  

Like you said, no more excuses.
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2017, 09:23 PM by Crash.)
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Crash
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#56
12-16-2017, 09:21 PM

Quote:It's about the talent you have on your team and is that talent being utilitzed to the best of it's ability. THAT'S the standard.

I agree, Tomlin doesn't run the offense.  Art II's buddy does.  

Haley's responsible for this:

           

Shit like above is why this offense is erratic.  Haley even did it on the last drive Sunday night, he had HUNTER at WR over Bryant to start the last drive, and they had Grimble running a pass pattern deep on Ben's next to last pass, and Ben bailed out Haley's idiocy when he threw that TD pass to Nix who adds nothing to the passing game.  Grimble adds nothing most weeks, Hunter adds nothing all year.  

Toddy's cute little tricks don't fool anyone, and he can't help himself or stop himself from doing it.

Here's Nix, James, and BJ Finney running pass patterns.  

https://twitter.com/Alex_Kozora/status/9...9468346368


Jerald Hawkins ran a pass route in Cincy also.  

   

He now joins the other OT's I've posted who have run pass patterns that were A) Not tackle eligibles, and B) Not in the red zone.  

And people wonder why this offense is shit most weeks.  

And it's the responsibility of the guy Tomlin DIDN'T hire.  
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2017, 09:54 PM by Crash.)
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SteelThePain82
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#57
12-16-2017, 10:43 PM

Crash,
I'm on board with you on Haley, but then what's Keith Butler's excuse for this defense?

As others have stated, they don't wrap up tackle worth a $hit.
Burns and Davis haven't progressed.
The secondary in general is awful!
Whomever evaluated and continues to see Mike "Late Hit" Mitchell as a starting Safety should be fired IMHO!
Bud Dupree has NOT progressed.
The inside linebackers (now without Shazier) look like a HUGE liability for the rest of the year!

Haley, Butler, Lake, Porter, Olsavsky...

The ONLY coaches on this team that appear to be worth their weight in salt are:

Mike Munchak - OL Coach
John Mitchell - DL Coach
and
Richard Mann - WR Coach (who is retiring at the end of this year)
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The Lakelander
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#58
12-17-2017, 12:11 AM

https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-ste...-112332875

So if Tomlin can't win it THIS year with Big Ben, how's he gonna win it NEXT year with, say, Dobbs?  Lol

The Tomlin nuthuggers are gonna conniption when their coach suffers his first 4-12 season ...

Big Grin Super Bowl or Bust !!! ... (I'm guessing "Bust") ... but hey ... 
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mcmillenandwife
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#59
12-17-2017, 02:52 AM

(12-17-2017, 12:11 AM)The Lakelander Wrote: https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-ste...-112332875

So if Tomlin can't win it THIS year with Big Ben, how's he gonna win it NEXT year with, say, Dobbs?  Lol

The Tomlin nuthuggers are gonna conniption when their coach suffers his first 4-12 season ...


Mariucci doesn't know shit. If Ben was going to retire at the end of this season, the team would already know because that kind of thing gives you an EDGE as a rallying point. In the NFL where everything else is so closely matched, anything that fuels emotion is useful, perhaps nothing more than having an all-time great player retire.   

Whether we win the Super Bowl or not (and I currently like our chances A LOT), I believe Ben will be here next season. When it's his last season, barring (and heaven forbid) an injury scenario, the team and fans will know well ahead of time. 

Guys who throw for 500 yards in a game aren't on the way out. 

By the way... if Belichick doesn't retire when Brady hangs up his cleats, the Cleveland version of Belichick will return.
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mcmillenandwife
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#60
12-17-2017, 03:04 AM

(12-16-2017, 04:08 AM)The Lakelander Wrote: And no, it's really NOT just another regular season game. If you're there you've quite honestly lost your perspective Tim.

I didn't say it was just another game, Lake. I clearly said it was of tremendous importance because it will establish the pecking order in the playoffs (home field advantage). I also said the psychology of beating the Patriots is huge. But beyond those two very important factors, it doesn't carry additional weight even though it's a true "5-star" match-up and lots of people will be watching.
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